So, I've run across a lot of discussions about gunslingers, free action reloads, and full attacking. However, I haven't seen anyone addressing an interesting point I noticed about the Rapid Reload feat (text for it below, emphasis added, all references copied from D20PFSRD.com):
Benefit: The time required for you to reload your chosen type of weapon is reduced to a free action (for a hand or light crossbow), a move action (for heavy crossbow or one-handed firearm), or a standard action (two-handed firearm). Reloading a crossbow or firearm still provokes attacks of opportunity.
If you have selected this feat for a hand crossbow or light crossbow, you may fire that weapon as many times in a full-attack action as you could attack if you were using a bow.
Thus, according to this feat, the only weapons you can make a full attack action with are a hand crossbow and light crossbow. For those wanting to do so with a heavy crossbow, they need Crossbow Mastery:
Benefit: The time required for you to reload any type of crossbow is reduced to a free action, regardless of the type of crossbow used. You can fire a crossbow as many times in a full attack action as you could attack if you were using a bow. Reloading a crossbow for the type of crossbow you chose when you took Rapid Reload no longer provokes attacks of opportunity.
Alchemical cartridges can reduce the required time by one step as well, but they do not have that special full attack addition:
An alchemical cartridge is a prepared bundle of black powder with a bullet or pellets, sometimes with more exotic material added, which is then wrapped in paper or cloth and sealed with beeswax, lard, or tallow. There are many types of alchemical cartridges, the simplest being the paper cartridge—a simple mix of black powder and either pellets or a bullet. Alchemical cartridges make loading a firearm easier, reducing the time to load a firearm by one step (a full-round action becomes a standard action, a standard action becomes a move action, and a move action becomes a free action), but they tend to be unstable. The misfire value of a weapon firing an alchemical cartridge increases as listed in each entry.
Ergo, unless there is a rules addendum or clarification I have missed, the ability of firearm users to take a full attack action is not granted explicitly by the rules and is completely up to DM interpretation. Since the gunslinger class has a built in way to make use of those extra attacks (Dead Shot at lvl 7), I would rule that gunslingers cannot make full attacks regardless of reloading as a free action. This ruling also brings the class somewhat more in balance with archer or crossbowman damage (not as much overall if the archer/crossbowman rolls hot, but almost guaranteed each round due to touch ac).
Thoughts? Opinions? Interpretations?
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The only thing preventing you from firing your gun more than once in a full-round action is having to reload between shots. If that can be done as a free action, then of course you can full attack, because it's a weapon and all weapons can make full attacks.
You can full attack with guns, as long as you can reload them as a free action, nowhere does it say this isn't the case.
Explicitly bringing attention to crossbows and bows does not alter the existing rules on iterative attacks for other weapons.
What I'm saying is that the rules DO allow for full attacks, and they DON'T forbid them.
Reading one part of one feat with no context outside of that, you might interpret guns as not having the ability to full attack, but that would be wrong.
GM Lamplighter wrote: The only thing preventing you from firing your gun more than once in a full-round action is having to reload between shots. If that can be done as a free action, then of course you can full attack, because it's a weapon and all weapons can make full attacks. And yet, as I pointed out, both feats deliberately specify which weapons you can full attack with "as if you were using a bow". They do not state that reducing any weapon to a free action reload allows you to full attack with it. The implication there is that the bow is the exception to the rule that you cannot make a full attack action with projectile weapons.
As with any situation where the rules are explicit one way or another, it falls to DM interpretation.
If not for the gunslinger class's innate ability to make a full-round attack action (and balance issues), I would have no problem with agreeing that they can make a full attack with free action reload. However, it is clear that the designers did not intend for the gunslinger to do so (otherwise, why have Dead Shot at all?).
When Rapid Reload was written for the CRB, the CRB was the only book. Gungslingers didn't exist yet. Also, Paizo's policy is to not have the CRB refer to stuff in other books.
There's nothing in the gunslinger writeup that suggests you can't make full attacks, except that reloading would be a problem without aids like feats or cartridges.
I believe it's the same with Rapid Reload by the way: the only reason you can't normally full attack with a crossbow is because you'd need move actions to reload. If you had a magic crossbow that automatically reloads you wouldn't need Rapid Shot. That text in the feat is just a reminder of the consequences of reducing the load time to Free.
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Besides that, guns can't be both in line with crossbows and normal bows for power level, since there's an ocean of difference between those. Crossbows lag behind composite (Str) bows for damage, and require feats to get the same firing rate. There's far more material published for bows than for crossbows, too.
Given how hard dedicated archers hit, I also don't think gunslingers are ahead of them, more like just on-par.
alexd1976 wrote: You can full attack with guns, as long as you can reload them as a free action, nowhere does it say this isn't the case.
Explicitly bringing attention to crossbows and bows does not alter the existing rules on iterative attacks for other weapons.
What I'm saying is that the rules DO allow for full attacks, and they DON'T forbid them.
Reading one part of one feat with no context outside of that, you might interpret guns as not having the ability to full attack, but that would be wrong.
Sorry, but "the rules don't say that I can't do this" is a clear case of DM interpretation. To put a farcical spin on it, the rules don't say that a character can't kill an enemy by just smiling at it, so that combat was over quickly...
Interestingly enough, there are no rules that I can find stating that you can take a full attack action with a bow. Under their description (as well as the repeating crossbow description), it states that reloading (pulling the lever) is a free action. Under the combat section, the only reference to loading is that Crossbows/slings take a move/standard action to do so. The Full attack action does not make any reference to loading at all.
Thus, the fact that an archer can use a bow with a full-round attack is an assumption (since the rules state that free actions per round are limited by the DM - what if he states you may only take 1?). It is a good/obvious assumption, because otherwise they wouldn't have feats like rapid shot to allow you to take an extra attack. However, there is no rule explicitly stating that you may make multiple attacks per round with a projectile weapon if it has a free action reload.
Given the example of the bow/repeating crossbow, two potential interpretations arise:
1) Any weapon that has a free action reload can be used in a full attack action.
2) Unlike other projectile weapons, bows and repeating crossbows can be used in a full attack action.
Of these two interpretations, the 2nd is backed up by Rapid Reload's and Crossbow Mastery's rules descriptions.
My point here is NOT that Gunslingers being able to take a full attack is against the rules. My point is that the rules don't have an explicit answer to the free action reload question, so it requires DM interpretation. What I am trying to find out if I missed an explicit rules point.
Keyoke Diacherus wrote: alexd1976 wrote: You can full attack with guns, as long as you can reload them as a free action, nowhere does it say this isn't the case.
Explicitly bringing attention to crossbows and bows does not alter the existing rules on iterative attacks for other weapons.
What I'm saying is that the rules DO allow for full attacks, and they DON'T forbid them.
Reading one part of one feat with no context outside of that, you might interpret guns as not having the ability to full attack, but that would be wrong.
Sorry, but "the rules don't say that I can't do this" is a clear case of DM interpretation. To put a farcical spin on it, the rules don't say that a character can't kill an enemy by just smiling at it, so that combat was over quickly...
Interestingly enough, there are no rules that I can find stating that you can take a full attack action with a bow. Under their description (as well as the repeating crossbow description), it states that reloading (pulling the lever) is a free action. Under the combat section, the only reference to loading is that Crossbows/slings take a move/standard action to do so. The Full attack action does not make any reference to loading at all.
Thus, the fact that an archer can use a bow with a full-round attack is an assumption (since the rules state that free actions per round are limited by the DM - what if he states you may only take 1?). It is a good/obvious assumption, because otherwise they wouldn't have feats like rapid shot to allow you to take an extra attack. However, there is no rule explicitly stating that you may make multiple attacks per round with a projectile weapon if it has a free action reload.
Given the example of the bow/repeating crossbow, two potential interpretations arise:
1) Any weapon that has a free action reload can be used in a full attack action.
2) Unlike other projectile weapons, bows and repeating crossbows can be used in a full attack action.
Of these two interpretations, the 2nd is backed up by Rapid... The same arguments that suggest a bow may be used with a full attack action apply to guns, once you drop their reload rate to a free action. Or if you have multiple guns or multiple barrels. Or use advanced guns like revolvers.
Rapid shot can be used with guns as can Two Weapon Fighting.
If you're going to be ridiculously pedantic about it, your 2) should be: (With Rapid Reload or Crossbow Mastery) you may fire that weapon as many times in a full-attack action as you could attack if you were using a bow - which is once, since there's nothing explicit that says bows can be used for full-round attacks.
Ascalaphus wrote: When Rapid Reload was written for the CRB, the CRB was the only book. Gungslingers didn't exist yet. Also, Paizo's policy is to not have the CRB refer to stuff in other books.
The Rapid Reload description I quoted comes from the latest Errata (thus its reference to firearms).
Ascalaphus wrote:
There's nothing in the gunslinger writeup that suggests you can't make full attacks, except that reloading would be a problem without aids like feats or cartridges.
As I pointed out, why have Dead Shot, a full-action attack that specifically uses your extra attack rolls, if you can always make a full attack action? You will always do more damage with the full attack.
Ascalaphus wrote:
I believe it's the same with Rapid Reload by the way: the only reason you can't normally full attack with a crossbow is because you'd need move actions to reload. If you had a magic crossbow that automatically reloads you wouldn't need Rapid Shot. That text in the feat is just a reminder of the consequences of reducing the load time to Free.
Ah, but you are having to interpret what the feat says - neither it nor the CRB ever state explicitly that all free action reloads lead to full attacks, only bows, hand crossbows, and light crossbows. It is a valid interpretation, but it is not backed up by explicit rules.
Ascalaphus wrote:
Besides that, guns can't be both in line with crossbows and normal bows for power level, since there's an ocean of difference between those. Crossbows lag behind composite (Str) bows for damage, and require feats to get the same firing rate. There's far more material published for bows than for crossbows, too.
Given how hard dedicated archers hit, I also don't think gunslingers are ahead of them, more like just on-par.
Crossbows' "balancing" factor comes from being able to do things with them that are more difficult/impossible with a bow (shoot underwater, shoot one-handed, dual wield, etc.) I agree that they fall behind generally, but they are a valid option for a different playing style.
If you want to see how broken gunslingers are in comparison, look at any of the many posts here or elsewhere about it. They get to add their dex bonus to damage (1 stat for att/dam vs. 2 for a bow) and their attacks are resolved against touch AC, meaning most high level monsters are easy prey. Allowing them to full attack with those bonuses means that most big tough monsters (like dragons) are a far easier challenge than for the archer, since the archer will probably miss with his interatives against the dragon's regular high AC.
Keyoke Diacherus wrote: Ascalaphus wrote: There's nothing in the gunslinger writeup that suggests you can't make full attacks, except that reloading would be a problem without aids like feats or cartridges. As I pointed out, why have Dead Shot, a full-action attack that specifically uses your extra attack rolls, if you can always make a full attack action? You will always do more damage with the full attack. The obvious answer is "When you can't free action reload".
It might also be useful when dealing with high DR.
thejeff wrote: The same arguments that suggest a bow may be used with a full attack action apply to guns, once you drop their reload rate to a free action. Or if you have multiple guns or multiple barrels. Or use advanced guns like revolvers.
Rapid shot can be used with guns as can Two Weapon Fighting.
If you're going to be ridiculously pedantic about it, your 2) should be: (With Rapid Reload or Crossbow Mastery) you may fire that weapon as many times in a full-attack action as you could attack if you were using a bow - which is once, since there's nothing explicit that says bows can be used for full-round attacks.
Actually, I was mistaken in my earlier post, since Rapid Reload makes it clear that Bows are explicitly allowed the ability to full attack (you may fire that weapon as many times in a full-attack action as you could attack if you were using a bow) and the full-attack action requires you to have multiple attacks to use it (If you get more than one attack per round because your base attack bonus is high enough (see Base Attack Bonus in Chapter 3), because you fight with two weapons or a double weapon, or for some special reason, you must use a full-round action to get your additional attacks.) So no, pedantic or not, the rules clearly support full attacking with bows and (free action) crossbows.
I used Rapid Shot to support bows because it was obviously intended for them (both in the CRB and all). While nothing states that Rapid Shot can't be used with guns, nothing explicitly supports its use with guns. The gunslinger class specifically gains Dead Shot, a full-action ability to make use of all of their "attack potential" - as I've previously stated, why include that ability in the class if you intended them to be able to take a full action attack regardless?
thejeff wrote:
The obvious answer is "When you can't free action reload".
It might also be useful when dealing with high DR.
'obvious' is an interesting term, since I see it as obvious that they didn't want them making full attacks, but it is a valid interpretation regardless. Again, however, this is all about interpretations. I was curious if there was an actual rules ruling regarding this.
Also, I would want a free action reload in order to use a full-action ability - don't want to waste two rounds for one attack ; )
Btw, I should mention that I am not against gunslingers at all, I just prefer to have balanced classes in a game. In a home campaign, I would probably just remove the whole "touch AC" issue and misfire rules (unless I was running with some sort of critical failure chart for the whole party) and let them full attack to their hearts content (perhaps with Vital Strike feats as bonuses instead of dead shot). After all, if you shoot a block of ballistics gel and another protected by plate armor with a gun, you will see significantly less damage to the protected one - Guns didn't magically avoid armor, they just made it less impenetrable, so people stopped wearing as much because lots of armor has downsides (expense, mobility, weight, etc.).
Since I play and DM in PFS, I was looking for a rules interpretation to temper gunslingers brokenness. Not sure though if I would ever use it, given the other brokenness I've seen at higher levels (hit creature - free intimidate - frightened for the combat, for example).
Mainly I was just curious to see if I was missing something in the rules. So far, though, all I'm seeing are "that's how it's always been done" arguments (which again, is a valid interpretation, but not hard and fast rules).
Thanks for your replies, and feel free to chime in with other points : )
thejeff wrote: Keyoke Diacherus wrote: Ascalaphus wrote: There's nothing in the gunslinger writeup that suggests you can't make full attacks, except that reloading would be a problem without aids like feats or cartridges. As I pointed out, why have Dead Shot, a full-action attack that specifically uses your extra attack rolls, if you can always make a full attack action? You will always do more damage with the full attack. The obvious answer is "When you can't free action reload".
It might also be useful when dealing with high DR. I always assumed it was primarily to bypass DR, but I just noticed it would also conserve ammunition if you were short on ammo or just a bit of a skinflint.
Being able to full attack is always available, right there in the combat section. You would need a specific rule stating you can't full attack, or a specific situation disallowing you from full attacking (such as needing more than a free action to reload). It's about as specific as you can get. I feel you are over-thinking this.
Admittedly I may not have as much experience as y'all with higher level pathfinder encounters, but do you often run into DR that's impossible to bypass? I mean, by the time you are 7th level, you should have ways to bypass DR based on materials (different bullets), magic (magic weapon of course), and alignment (holy enchant or maybe an oil of align weapon). I suppose you'd be bothered by DR/slashing or DR/-, but those are fairly rare instances.
Regardless, all you are getting is an extra die or two to your damage. Since your base damage bonus should be equivalent or greater than the DR you're targeting (enhancement + dex bonus, at the least), you'd be just as well off (most likely better off) full attacking if it were allowed.
There's no explicit rule saying you can't full attack with crossbows, guns, or slings for that matter.
There's only some reminder text that points out that this or that ability removes the reloading obstacle that would normally make it impossible to fire more than once.
You're inferring a rule that doesn't exist. Such a rule would be significant enough that if it existed, it would be called out explicitly, in the description of the weapon, or the firearms rules. We shouldn't have to read crossbow feats to discover that we can't full-attack with firearms.
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Re: deadshot:
PRD wrote: Dead Shot (Ex): At 7th level, as a full-round action, the gunslinger can take careful aim and pool all of her attack potential into a single, deadly shot. This implies that the gunslinger has a multi-shot potential that can be pooled into a single shot instead.
Apart from that, it does quite a few things; conserves ammo, efficiently handles DR, and increases the chance of a critical hit.
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Re: balance:
I see your "gunsliners are OP" and raise you a Zen Archer, Ranger Archery Style and Paladin Smite.
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Keyoke Diacherus wrote: Since I play and DM in PFS, I was looking for a rules interpretation to temper gunslingers brokenness. Speaking as someone who's played a Gunslinger in PFS to level 12, and as someone who's been involved for almost 3 years with the Campaign, I can tell you with good authority that "gunslinger brokenness" in PFS is a farce.
Everyone looks at the online guides and reads the General Discussion forum and sees "OmG GunshlingerS R so BROkEN WUT can I DOOO???/?" and, without any actual evidence, concludes that Gunslingers are broken and need to be nerfed and/or banned.
I probably thought the same thing, at one time. And then I played one. And I have to tell you, it was painful.
What makes Gunslingers powerful is the ability to ignore misfire chances at level 13. The only other way to reduce misfire to zero before that is by spending an inordinate amount of money on a +1 Greater Reliable firearm. To give you perspective, that was something I didn't have the money or Fame for until level 11. Assuming you plan on taking said Gunslinger all the way to level 20, that means wasting 34k on a weapon that'll be replaced by a class feature after 2 levels.
And ignore anything you read about dual-wielding firearms. It's a myth that can't be pulled off unless you're starting in a high level home campaign where you get to ignore all the pain of the lower levels.
Levels 1-4 are painful without damage boosts. At level 5 you'll see a slight uptick in effectiveness, which then drops at level 6. Having more attacks actually hurts a Gunslinger, because it increases their rate of misfire. Double-barreled firearms increase this rate twofold. Misfire doesn't get the attention it deserves. It shuts you down for 2 rounds, by which time the rest of the party will have killed off whatever you were shooting at. Having 8 attacks doesn't mean squat if your firearm breaks 25% of the time.
In short, Gunslingers are not broken. DPS-wise, a high level Gunslinger might outpace some other DPS builds, but it's no more broken than any other specialization out there. Gunslingers just get a bad wrap because "I don't want tech in my fantasy", and people disguise that dislike by saying that they're OP.
They're not.
I hate to say this but dual wielding firearms is no longer a Myth. not with:
Gun Twirling (grit)
Prerequisite(s): Amateur Gunslinger feat or grit class feature, Dazzling Display, Weapon Focus.
Benefit(s): You can spend 1 grit point to make a feint attempt using a one-handed firearm for which you have Weapon Focus (instead of a melee weapon). The target of this feint must be within 30 feet of you and be able to see you.
If you have the Quick Draw feat, you can holster a one-handed firearm as a free action as long as you have at least 1 grit point.
And Quickdraw says you can draw a weapon as a free action.
Reloading a Firearm requires two hands.
So Full attack looks like this in order;
1. fire both guns
2. holster one as a free action, reload the one in your hand
3. holster that one, draw the other, reload it
4. draw the 2nd one again
5. fire both guns again.
Feat Path required to become Dual Wielding Gunslinger:
Human:
1st level: Weapon Focus, Dazzling Display
3rd Level: Quick Draw
4th Level Bonus Feat: Rapid Reload
5th Level: Gun Twirling or Two-Weapon Fighting
7th Level: Gun Twirling or Two-Weapon Fighting (the other of the two you didn't take as a bonus feat).
Other Races: this drops them back to 9th level is when their feat path is finished.
This puts you behind melee classes that can dual wield but still very viable and good dps. Although it takes a while to get up to this point you could always still dual wield guns by 3rd level. just take Two-weapon Fighting in place of Dazzling display at 1st level and since you can Craft Pistols for 500gp a day, by 3rd level you can have 4 or 5 (starting Pistol plus 4 more with 4000gp character wealth if you dont spend it on anything else) and just fire both your pistols, drop them, then quick draw the next 2 on the next round. by the time you draw your 5th gun the fight should be over. pick them up and reload, continue on.
This means that with One-Handed Firearms (Pistol) and Alchemical Cartridges you can full attack all your iteratives (3 attacks) at 6th level, (4 attacks) at 9th or 11th with Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, using Gun Twirling. I like to think of this as Ocelot from Metal Gear except faster. lol
Also you have pretty much killed your own argument, as you have said, no where does it state you can't make a full attack action with projectile weapons. but the Combat rules say that if you have a BAB of +6 or higher you can make an additional attack at -5, provided you have the means to do so. In combination with action economy, this means that if you have reloading to a free action (you can have as many free actions as you could possibly want - subject to DM discrestion, as stated also in the CRB) then you can make a full attack with projectile weapons. If you only have reloading to a move action then you could only make the 1 attack.
Also Dead Shot is a special ability Gunslingers get to reduce feat tax as Dead Shot is pretty much just the Feat known as Clustered Shot, but with a cost. and if you want to argue semantics, one could argue that Deadshot would only allow you to apply 1 attack as that is technically "all the attack potential you have" since by your thoughts "you can't make full attacks with projectile weapons" even though the gunslinger gets an Iterative in their BAB column. So if Gunslingers were not meant to make full attacks with their Classes namesake then why add the iterative in the BAB column, let me make a similar comparison, why let a wizard, who will 99% of the time use spells instead of a weapon, have an iterative in their BAB column, since you cant full attack with spells either. Its because if you have the means to do so, then you can make a full attack with ANY weapon. notice I said weapon not with ANYTHING. how often do you see a Gunslinger with a Melee weapon?
One more Also... allowing Gunslingers to hit Touch AC is not game breaking in the least since they have to be within 20'/50', which puts them waaayyyy closer than an archer who can stand at 80' with a light crossbow, potentially getting them killed, it was a tactical decision by the designers to say "here be able to hit them easier because really... it's you or them"
Nope sorry one more Also.... the reason the Rapid Reload feat says "you can make a full attack with the light or hand crossbow like you could a bow" is because there is no way to reduce the reload time of a Heavy Crossbow to a free action. However with guns there is a handy little item called the Alchemical Cartridge that lets you reduce the reload time of your firearm by 1 step. this explicitly states that you can make a move action a free action, thus allowing you to full attack with a firearm. So while the rules might not specifically say that free actions constitute the ability to full attack with a projectile weapon, the designers felt it wasnt necessary to do so as it is pretty common sense that it does. especially considering the fact that "When using a bow, a character can draw ammunition as a FREE ACTION". Thus saying for all future projectile weapons, "if you have reloading as a free action you can make full attacks" as drawing the ammunition and loading is all part of the same action.
So its all laid out in plain black and white that you can use feats such as Rapid Shot and the like, you are just over analyzing it.
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