Keyoke Diacherus's page

Take a Spectre and add levels in unchained monk. Technically, the advancement rules state that monk is always considered a non-key class (+1 CR/2 class levels), but I think +1 CR per level is appropriate.

Give said creature the Feral Combat Training feat that allows it to flurry of blows its slam attack. Incorporeal, potentially ridiculous AC (dex, wis, AND cha), and the ability to easily energy drain 6+ levels per round on a (at minimum) CR 8 critter.

Prepare get-away vehicle in case of rioting players.

Seriously though, he sounds like the perfect end to an adventure centered around an abandoned haunted monastery. ("He still awaits pupils who can prove themselves worthy.")

Just don't spring it on them unexpectedly...

Admittedly I may not have as much experience as y'all with higher level pathfinder encounters, but do you often run into DR that's impossible to bypass? I mean, by the time you are 7th level, you should have ways to bypass DR based on materials (different bullets), magic (magic weapon of course), and alignment (holy enchant or maybe an oil of align weapon). I suppose you'd be bothered by DR/slashing or DR/-, but those are fairly rare instances.

Regardless, all you are getting is an extra die or two to your damage. Since your base damage bonus should be equivalent or greater than the DR you're targeting (enhancement + dex bonus, at the least), you'd be just as well off (most likely better off) full attacking if it were allowed.

Btw, I should mention that I am not against gunslingers at all, I just prefer to have balanced classes in a game. In a home campaign, I would probably just remove the whole "touch AC" issue and misfire rules (unless I was running with some sort of critical failure chart for the whole party) and let them full attack to their hearts content (perhaps with Vital Strike feats as bonuses instead of dead shot). After all, if you shoot a block of ballistics gel and another protected by plate armor with a gun, you will see significantly less damage to the protected one - Guns didn't magically avoid armor, they just made it less impenetrable, so people stopped wearing as much because lots of armor has downsides (expense, mobility, weight, etc.).

Since I play and DM in PFS, I was looking for a rules interpretation to temper gunslingers brokenness. Not sure though if I would ever use it, given the other brokenness I've seen at higher levels (hit creature - free intimidate - frightened for the combat, for example).

Mainly I was just curious to see if I was missing something in the rules. So far, though, all I'm seeing are "that's how it's always been done" arguments (which again, is a valid interpretation, but not hard and fast rules).

Thanks for your replies, and feel free to chime in with other points : )

The same arguments that suggest a bow may be used with a full attack action apply to guns, once you drop their reload rate to a free action. Or if you have multiple guns or multiple barrels. Or use advanced guns like revolvers.

Rapid shot can be used with guns as can Two Weapon Fighting.
If you're going to be ridiculously pedantic about it, your 2) should be: (With Rapid Reload or Crossbow Mastery) you may fire that weapon as many times in a full-attack action as you could attack if you were using a bow - which is once, since there's nothing explicit that says bows can be used for full-round attacks.

Actually, I was mistaken in my earlier post, since Rapid Reload makes it clear that Bows are explicitly allowed the ability to full attack (you may fire that weapon as many times in a full-attack action as you could attack if you were using a bow) and the full-attack action requires you to have multiple attacks to use it (If you get more than one attack per round because your base attack bonus is high enough (see Base Attack Bonus in Chapter 3), because you fight with two weapons or a double weapon, or for some special reason, you must use a full-round action to get your additional attacks.) So no, pedantic or not, the rules clearly support full attacking with bows and (free action) crossbows.

I used Rapid Shot to support bows because it was obviously intended for them (both in the CRB and all). While nothing states that Rapid Shot can't be used with guns, nothing explicitly supports its use with guns. The gunslinger class specifically gains Dead Shot, a full-action ability to make use of all of their "attack potential" - as I've previously stated, why include that ability in the class if you intended them to be able to take a full action attack regardless?

The obvious answer is "When you can't free action reload".
It might also be useful when dealing with high DR.

'obvious' is an interesting term, since I see it as obvious that they didn't want them making full attacks, but it is a valid interpretation regardless. Again, however, this is all about interpretations. I was curious if there was an actual rules ruling regarding this.

Also, I would want a free action reload in order to use a full-action ability - don't want to waste two rounds for one attack ; )

When Rapid Reload was written for the CRB, the CRB was the only book. Gungslingers didn't exist yet. Also, Paizo's policy is to not have the CRB refer to stuff in other books.

The Rapid Reload description I quoted comes from the latest Errata (thus its reference to firearms).

There's nothing in the gunslinger writeup that suggests you can't make full attacks, except that reloading would be a problem without aids like feats or cartridges.

As I pointed out, why have Dead Shot, a full-action attack that specifically uses your extra attack rolls, if you can always make a full attack action? You will always do more damage with the full attack.

I believe it's the same with Rapid Reload by the way: the only reason you can't normally full attack with a crossbow is because you'd need move actions to reload. If you had a magic crossbow that automatically reloads you wouldn't need Rapid Shot. That text in the feat is just a reminder of the consequences of reducing the load time to Free.

Ah, but you are having to interpret what the feat says - neither it nor the CRB ever state explicitly that all free action reloads lead to full attacks, only bows, hand crossbows, and light crossbows. It is a valid interpretation, but it is not backed up by explicit rules.

Besides that, guns can't be both in line with crossbows and normal bows for power level, since there's an ocean of difference between those. Crossbows lag behind composite (Str) bows for damage, and require feats to get the same firing rate. There's far more material published for bows than for crossbows, too.

Given how hard dedicated archers hit, I also don't think gunslingers are ahead of them, more like just on-par.

Crossbows' "balancing" factor comes from being able to do things with them that are more difficult/impossible with a bow (shoot underwater, shoot one-handed, dual wield, etc.) I agree that they fall behind generally, but they are a valid option for a different playing style.

If you want to see how broken gunslingers are in comparison, look at any of the many posts here or elsewhere about it. They get to add their dex bonus to damage (1 stat for att/dam vs. 2 for a bow) and their attacks are resolved against touch AC, meaning most high level monsters are easy prey. Allowing them to full attack with those bonuses means that most big tough monsters (like dragons) are a far easier challenge than for the archer, since the archer will probably miss with his interatives against the dragon's regular high AC.

You can full attack with guns, as long as you can reload them as a free action, nowhere does it say this isn't the case.

Explicitly bringing attention to crossbows and bows does not alter the existing rules on iterative attacks for other weapons.

What I'm saying is that the rules DO allow for full attacks, and they DON'T forbid them.

Reading one part of one feat with no context outside of that, you might interpret guns as not having the ability to full attack, but that would be wrong.

Sorry, but "the rules don't say that I can't do this" is a clear case of DM interpretation. To put a farcical spin on it, the rules don't say that a character can't kill an enemy by just smiling at it, so that combat was over quickly...

Interestingly enough, there are no rules that I can find stating that you can take a full attack action with a bow. Under their description (as well as the repeating crossbow description), it states that reloading (pulling the lever) is a free action. Under the combat section, the only reference to loading is that Crossbows/slings take a move/standard action to do so. The Full attack action does not make any reference to loading at all.

Thus, the fact that an archer can use a bow with a full-round attack is an assumption (since the rules state that free actions per round are limited by the DM - what if he states you may only take 1?). It is a good/obvious assumption, because otherwise they wouldn't have feats like rapid shot to allow you to take an extra attack. However, there is no rule explicitly stating that you may make multiple attacks per round with a projectile weapon if it has a free action reload.

Given the example of the bow/repeating crossbow, two potential interpretations arise:

1) Any weapon that has a free action reload can be used in a full attack action.

2) Unlike other projectile weapons, bows and repeating crossbows can be used in a full attack action.

Of these two interpretations, the 2nd is backed up by Rapid Reload's and Crossbow Mastery's rules descriptions.

My point here is NOT that Gunslingers being able to take a full attack is against the rules. My point is that the rules don't have an explicit answer to the free action reload question, so it requires DM interpretation. What I am trying to find out if I missed an explicit rules point.

The only thing preventing you from firing your gun more than once in a full-round action is having to reload between shots. If that can be done as a free action, then of course you can full attack, because it's a weapon and all weapons can make full attacks.

And yet, as I pointed out, both feats deliberately specify which weapons you can full attack with "as if you were using a bow". They do not state that reducing any weapon to a free action reload allows you to full attack with it. The implication there is that the bow is the exception to the rule that you cannot make a full attack action with projectile weapons.

As with any situation where the rules are explicit one way or another, it falls to DM interpretation.

If not for the gunslinger class's innate ability to make a full-round attack action (and balance issues), I would have no problem with agreeing that they can make a full attack with free action reload. However, it is clear that the designers did not intend for the gunslinger to do so (otherwise, why have Dead Shot at all?).

So, I've run across a lot of discussions about gunslingers, free action reloads, and full attacking. However, I haven't seen anyone addressing an interesting point I noticed about the Rapid Reload feat (text for it below, emphasis added, all references copied from D20PFSRD.com):

Benefit: The time required for you to reload your chosen type of weapon is reduced to a free action (for a hand or light crossbow), a move action (for heavy crossbow or one-handed firearm), or a standard action (two-handed firearm). Reloading a crossbow or firearm still provokes attacks of opportunity.

If you have selected this feat for a hand crossbow or light crossbow, you may fire that weapon as many times in a full-attack action as you could attack if you were using a bow.

Thus, according to this feat, the only weapons you can make a full attack action with are a hand crossbow and light crossbow. For those wanting to do so with a heavy crossbow, they need Crossbow Mastery:

Benefit: The time required for you to reload any type of crossbow is reduced to a free action, regardless of the type of crossbow used. You can fire a crossbow as many times in a full attack action as you could attack if you were using a bow. Reloading a crossbow for the type of crossbow you chose when you took Rapid Reload no longer provokes attacks of opportunity.

Alchemical cartridges can reduce the required time by one step as well, but they do not have that special full attack addition:

An alchemical cartridge is a prepared bundle of black powder with a bullet or pellets, sometimes with more exotic material added, which is then wrapped in paper or cloth and sealed with beeswax, lard, or tallow. There are many types of alchemical cartridges, the simplest being the paper cartridge—a simple mix of black powder and either pellets or a bullet. Alchemical cartridges make loading a firearm easier, reducing the time to load a firearm by one step (a full-round action becomes a standard action, a standard action becomes a move action, and a move action becomes a free action), but they tend to be unstable. The misfire value of a weapon firing an alchemical cartridge increases as listed in each entry.

Ergo, unless there is a rules addendum or clarification I have missed, the ability of firearm users to take a full attack action is not granted explicitly by the rules and is completely up to DM interpretation. Since the gunslinger class has a built in way to make use of those extra attacks (Dead Shot at lvl 7), I would rule that gunslingers cannot make full attacks regardless of reloading as a free action. This ruling also brings the class somewhat more in balance with archer or crossbowman damage (not as much overall if the archer/crossbowman rolls hot, but almost guaranteed each round due to touch ac).

Thoughts? Opinions? Interpretations?