When do alignment subtypes change?

[Mighty Squash]

Was just flicking through Bestiary 4 and noticed that the Broken Soul Lillend has the evil subtype rather than the good.

Broken Soul wrote:

CE Large outsider (azata, chaotic, extraplanar, evil)

Nothing in the template says anything about changing subtypes and the alignment subtypes say they are retained if the creature changes alignments.

Creature SubTypes wrote:

Good Subtype: This subtype is usually applied to outsiders native to the good-aligned outer planes. Most creatures that have this subtype also have good alignments; however, if their alignments change, they still retain the subtype. Any effect that depends on alignment affects a creature with this subtype as if the creature has a good alignment, no matter what its alignment actually is. The creature also suffers effects according to its actual alignment. A creature with the good subtype overcomes damage reduction as if its natural weapons and any weapons it wields are good-aligned (see Damage Reduction, page 299).

Is there a rule on this that I am missing?

[Chemlak]

There's really no hard and fast rule, unfortunately. In general, creatures from the bestiaries will have alignment subtypes that match their actual alignment (assuming they have them at all), even if the template doesn't affect type.

Another case in point is a certain demon in the Wrath of the Righteous AP who can be redeemed, and if they are, their subtype alters.

I'm personally a fan of "playing against subtype" (in my campaign there's a recurring LG succubus who is incredibly humble and just accepts the penalties she suffers from being a demon), but Paizo are pretty careful about not releasing "gotcha" monsters unless there is a story reason for it.

So, that's my answer: if there's a story reason for the creature to have differing alignment and alignment subtypes, then go for it, but if they're just a monster you're expecting the party to mow down, make them match.

[Zhayne]

A creature's alignment subtype is 'genetic'. It has no bearing on the creature's actual personality or behavior.

[Kazaan]

The thing to remember is that, in Pathfinder metaphysics, "Good", "Evil", "Lawful" and "Chaotic" are tangible forces of the same sort as we would consider gravity or electromagnetism. These are not subjective ethical considerations but real absolutes. A celestial is fueled by the power of "Good" while a fiend is fueled by "Evil". Ethical considerations are an extension of this. Mortals aren't fueled by alignment energies so we are very free to choose what kind of ethics to employ. But a Demon is fueled by raw Evil and Chaotic energies and this has a significant impact on how he behaves as well as how he reacts to other energies. A Demon may overcome the energies that fuel it, usually with a large degree of rationalization of his actions, but those base energies haven't "gone" anywhere. It's kind of like a Dhampir; it may be "alive", but it still reacts to positive/negative energy like an Undead would. A Demon may become good, but it still reacts to Good energy the way a creature with the Evil subtype would.

But there are cases of energy "conversion", where it isn't just an Evil-fueled outsider rationalizing good ethics. The Evil energy gets its polarity switched and creates a whole new entity. This is what happens with Fallen Angels; their Good energy gets converted into Evil energy. Everything is a matter of energy templates. To boil it down, energy has a "shape" and a "consistency". Consistency is about Good, Evil, Positive, Fire, etc. Shape is whether it forms a Demon, Azata, Angel, etc. So the Azata may still have the energy "shape" of an Azata, but the "consistency" or "texture" of the energy has changed.

[Dasrak]

My guess is that this is an oversight of the Broken Soul template and it's supposed to change the subtype, but that was never called out explicitly. There are lots of minor technicalities and rules interactions - like outsiders retaining their subtype even if their alignment changes - that authors might overlook and not realize they need to address explicitly in their rules.

[Mighty Squash]

It seems more in fitting with the fluff of how outsiders work (though my comprehension of this may still be stuck in D&D mode) for the Broken Soul to leave subtypes exactly as they were.

"The creature also suffers effects according to its actual alignment" so it isn't going to be tricking detect evil or avoiding smite evil just by having the good subtype. The only thing it will mess with are things that specifically target 'good'.

Yes, its attacks would still do good type damage, but that is far more likely to be a problem for its new evil allies than any good creature. But when it comes down to it, being tortured until you learn pain based (Su) abilities from all your suffering shouldn't change your genetic make up. It isn't rebuilding the creature from the ground up, it is adding some complications on the top.

[LazarX]

Mighty Squash wrote:

Was just flicking through Bestiary 4 and noticed that the Broken Soul Lillend has the evil subtype rather than the good.

Broken Soul wrote:

CE Large outsider (azata, chaotic, extraplanar, evil)

Nothing in the template says anything about changing subtypes and the alignment subtypes say they are retained if the creature changes alignments.

Creature SubTypes wrote:

Good Subtype: This subtype is usually applied to outsiders native to the good-aligned outer planes. Most creatures that have this subtype also have good alignments; however, if their alignments change, they still retain the subtype. Any effect that depends on alignment affects a creature with this subtype as if the creature has a good alignment, no matter what its alignment actually is. The creature also suffers effects according to its actual alignment. A creature with the good subtype overcomes damage reduction as if its natural weapons and any weapons it wields are good-aligned (see Damage Reduction, page 299).

Is there a rule on this that I am missing?

No there isn't , but as in Wrath of the Righteous, the game's creators reserve the right to make specific exceptions to general rules in this area.

[Scythia]

There aren't rules for it, so let me join in with my opinion. :P

For me it's a matter of method. If an outsider just changes their alignment based on thought and reflection, or otherwise by making a conscious decision to behave differently, the subtype remains because they are still the same being on an essential level, just choosing to act differently.

On the other hand, if an outsider changes alignment due to involvement with a deity, or some grand ceremony or foul ritual, then the energy of that changes them on an essential level, and the subtype changes to match.

So an angel that became disillusioned and just dropped out of the battles of the heavens against evil, and took up a life of petty thievery and occasional murder in a mortal city might switch to Neutral Evil eventually, but they would still have their original subtype(s). Meanwhile, an angel who performed a ritual where they sacrificed ten innocent children, one for each of the Nine Lords of Hell and one for the sheer pleasure, that angel would change to the evil subtype, if the Lords of Hell accepted their offering.