Does masterwork count as enhancement bonus for weapon properties?


Rules Questions


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A friend and member of my gaming group believes, and is asserting, that the +1 enhancement bonus to attacks granted by masterwork weapons is sufficient to count as having at least a +1 enhancement bonus for purposes of adding special weapon properties, since the Core Rulebook never specifies that it must be a magic weapon. He simultaneously believes that the table giving prices for magic weapon enhancement bonuses only applies to magical bonuses. I disagree with him on both counts. Vehemently. However, I am unable to find concrete conclusive evidence sufficient to convince him. It's actually becoming a moderately serious issue in our campaign.

So, my question is quite simply this: Does the enhancement bonus granted by masterwork weapons count as a +1 enhancement bonus for the purposes of adding weapon properties?
Ideally, I would like specific concrete sources that don't rely largely on common sense or how every other Pathfinder game is run, because appeals to those don't seem to work. A direct citation would be greatly appreciated.

Grand Lodge

No.


LazarX wrote:
No.

While I agree with you, I was hoping for something a little more concrete than a one-word answer.

EDIT: Concrete is the wrong word. Comprehensive, perhaps. Or compelling. I'm trying to convince somebody, after all.


No, it doesn't.


it really doesn't. This is a common sense thing, unfortunately for your friend.

Grand Lodge

Alex12 wrote:
LazarX wrote:
No.

While I agree with you, I was hoping for something a little more concrete than a one-word answer.

EDIT: Concrete is the wrong word. Comprehensive, perhaps. Or compelling. I'm trying to convince somebody, after all.

Then simply turn the page to that section on magical item creation. If the actual rule spelling out the +1 enhancement requirement isn't enough, what will be?


LazarX wrote:
Alex12 wrote:
LazarX wrote:
No.

While I agree with you, I was hoping for something a little more concrete than a one-word answer.

EDIT: Concrete is the wrong word. Comprehensive, perhaps. Or compelling. I'm trying to convince somebody, after all.

Then simply turn the page to that section on magical item creation. If the actual rule spelling out the +1 enhancement requirement isn't enough, what will be?

I did that. He asserts that masterwork weapons grant a +1 enhancement bonus to hit (which is, of course, true) and that thus the +1 enhancement bonus minimum is met.

Grand Lodge

Alex12 wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Alex12 wrote:
LazarX wrote:
No.

While I agree with you, I was hoping for something a little more concrete than a one-word answer.

EDIT: Concrete is the wrong word. Comprehensive, perhaps. Or compelling. I'm trying to convince somebody, after all.

Then simply turn the page to that section on magical item creation. If the actual rule spelling out the +1 enhancement requirement isn't enough, what will be?
I did that. He asserts that masterwork weapons grant a +1 enhancement bonus to hit (which is, of course, true) and that thus the +1 enhancement bonus minimum is met.

A masterwork weapon does not have a +1 enhancement bonus, which is defined as a +1 to hit AND damage. it only has a partial bonus to hit which being enhancement derived does not stack with the +1 to hit bonus of a full enhancement.

Edit: Just checked... masterwork weapons have no true enhancement bonus, they have a masterwork enhancement bonus to hit, which despite being named differently, is still not a stacking bonus.


The +1 bonus to attack rolls granted by a Masterwork weapon is not the same as being a weapon with a +1 Enhancement bonus. +1 weapons add to both attack AND damage.

Your weapon needs at least a +1 Enhancement bonus to have weapon special abilities. Not just a +1 to-hit. Not just a +1 to damage. A +1 Enhancement bonus, which is a specific thing to +1 weapons.

Regardless, he can feel free to believe what he wants. Everyone who isn't deliberately being stupid knows exactly what is meant by this rule, since it's under the section for magic items. There isn't a table in the world that will actually run it the way he's suggesting.


It is not met.

We are all in 100% agreement that a weapon must have at least a +1 MAGIC enhancement before receiving any more.

That means a magical weapon. Magical. Masterwork is not magical.

Show him the part where it says a masterwork weapon is now ready to receive magic due to quality. Not magic itself.


PRD/equipment wrote:

Masterwork Weapons

A masterwork weapon is a finely crafted version of a normal weapon. Wielding it provides a +1 enhancement bonus on attack rolls.
...
All magic weapons are automatically considered to be of masterwork quality. The enhancement bonus granted by the masterwork quality doesn't stack with the enhancement bonus provided by the weapon's magic.
PRD/magic weapons wrote:

A magic weapon is enhanced to strike more truly and deliver more damage. Magic weapons have enhancement bonuses ranging from +1 to +5. They apply these bonuses to both attack and damage rolls when used in combat. All magic weapons are also masterwork weapons, but their masterwork bonuses on attack rolls do not stack with their enhancement bonuses on attack rolls

...
Some magic weapons have special abilities. Special abilities count as additional bonuses for determining the market value of the item, but do not modify attack or damage bonuses (except where specifically noted). A single weapon cannot have a modified bonus (enhancement bonus plus special ability bonus equivalents, including those from character abilities and spells) higher than +10. A weapon with a special ability must also have at least a +1 enhancement bonus. Weapons cannot possess the same special ability more than once.

Masterwork is not magic. While both grant an enhancement bonus they are not the same thing.

The bolded (and is what I assume is causing the disagreement) section must be taken in context. That section refers only to magic enhancement and qualities. It makes no mention of masterwork, because it is neither relevant or applicable.

There is not a lot you can do if someone insists on reading something out of context though. They will insist they are reading it correctly.

Grand Lodge

Rynjin wrote:

The +1 bonus to attack rolls granted by a Masterwork weapon is not the same as being a weapon with a +1 Enhancement bonus. +1 weapons add to both attack AND damage.

Your weapon needs at least a +1 Enhancement bonus to have weapon special abilities. Not just a +1 to-hit. Not just a +1 to damage. A +1 Enhancement bonus, which is a specific thing to +1 weapons.

Regardless, he can feel free to believe what he wants. Everyone who isn't deliberately being stupid knows exactly what is meant by this rule, since it's under the section for magic items. There isn't a table in the world that will actually run it the way he's suggesting.

He's not being stupid, he's trying to argue the price of his magical weapons down and front load on weapon qualities. He knows what he's trying to achieve, and he's trying to pull one on the DM.


Here is a magic item that allows you to boost it with bonuses without the plus one magic enhancement.

Note that it is EXPLICIT in what that means. It is also EXPLICIT that enhancements means plus one to damage AND attack.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/a-b/amule t-of-mighty-fists

Since they go out of their way to say it, it shows the rule by being the exception.


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Let's cherry-pick some sentences and see what we can do.

CRB pg467.
"Magic weapons have enhancement bonuses ranging from +1 to +5."

Table 15-8, pg468
Weapon bonus (+1) = Base Price 2,000 gp

Okay, so there's a thing called a +1 enhancement bonus, and it costs 2,000gp to have.

CRB pg468
"A weapon with a special ability must also have at least a +1 enhancement bonus."

Let's think about this. There's a table that documents the price of the range of +1 to +5, with a specific line for +1. It literally tells you what having that costs. Then it tells you if you don't have that thing, you can't have special abilities.

That's called cut & dried.

But let's carry on.

CRB pg149
"Wielding it provides a +1 enhancement bonus on attack rolls."
"The enhancement bonus
granted by the masterwork quality doesn’t stack with the enhancement bonus provided by the weapon’s magic."

Well, it seems in the Masterwork weapons section of the book there are two interesting things. First, it turns out that masterwork provides an enhancement bonus to attack rolls. Second, it's clear that masterwork is merely a subset, sub-function, sub-everything of an actual +1 enhancement that comes from being magic.

Huh. They're not the same, they don't cost the same, they don't do the same thing. So yeah, no, there's no sentence saying "you can't put flaming on a merely masterwork glaive" for the same reason there isn't a sentence saying "you can't use the planet as an improvised weapon". You don't need such a sentence.

Now, that all said, it might be valuable to explain what's going on here. The game has a lot of bonuses, and they tend to usually be "named" bonuses. Named bonuses never stack, meaning that if you have a +1 dog bonus to armor class from some spell, and a +2 dog bonus to armor class from a magic item, you don't get +3. You get +2, which is the bigger of the two numbers. But if you can get a +1 cat bonus to armor class from somewhere, that will stack because it's a different named bonus.

The two most common/fundamental named bonuses are "enhancement" and "circumstance". They kind of mean what they say.

A circumstance bonus comes from a situation or detail which is abnormal. For instance, if Character A tries to slide down a bannister, the DM will assign a DC for (probably) an Acrobatics check. If Character A covers the bannister with butter first, the DM might grant Character A a circumstance bonus to the check, because the circumstance is unusual and modified. It's not permanent.

An enhancement bonus usually comes from an improvement or upgrade of some sort. So if Character A has crafted frictionless pants of sliding, those pants will probably give them a circumstance bonus to Acrobatics checks made to slide on things while sitting.

The point is that enhancement bonuses come from items/equipment being "better". So yeah, a masterwork weapon is just a little bit "better" at hitting things because it's better balanced, or sharper, or a bit stronger. A +1 magic weapon is a} magic, and b} so much "better" that it does more damage than a merely masterwork weapon. The masterwork weapon is "enhanced" relative to a normal weapon, but a +1 weapon is "enhanced" beyond that.

The book says you need a +1 enhancement to use a special ability. Yes, masterwork grants a +1 enhancement. Got it Mr. Technicality guy, but in the very same section, it makes clear what "+1 enhancement" means for purposes of magic. It means the full +1 enhancement, that applies to attack rolls and damage. It's talking about the thing a paragraph earlier, not the thing 300 pages earlier, in the non-magic section of the book.

For balance purposes, you are expected to have spent 2,300gp+ on your weapon before you can add other abilities. The flaming ability is expected to require a budget of 8,300gp+ While cutting the budget by 6,000gp isn't the end of the universe, it's clearly not what's intended.

Step away from the cheese. That +1 enhancement bonus is mostly a tax, deliberately pacing the costing in the game.


Sooooooo

No.


The context makes which enhancement bonus the rules refer to, the magic bonus, pretty obvious. If he is being stubborn, go over the magic armor rules. They refer to the same +1 enhancement bonus and masterwork armor doesn't have an enhancement bonus.


dragonhunterq wrote:
PRD/magic weapons wrote:
Some magic weapons have special abilities. Special abilities count as additional bonuses for determining the market value of the item, but do not modify attack or damage bonuses (except where specifically noted). A single weapon cannot have a modified bonus (enhancement bonus plus special ability bonus equivalents, including those from character abilities and spells) higher than +10. A weapon with a special ability must also have at least a +1 enhancement bonus. Weapons cannot possess the same special ability more than once.

Masterwork is not magic. While both grant an enhancement bonus they are not the same thing.

The bolded (and is what I assume is causing the disagreement) section must be taken in context. That section refers only to magic enhancement and qualities. It makes no mention of masterwork, because it is neither relevant or applicable.

There is not a lot you can do if someone insists on reading something out of context though. They will insist they are reading it correctly.

I would suggest that the most important sentence in this quote is the one I will put in bold...

PRD/magic weapons wrote:
Some magic weapons have special abilities. Special abilities count as additional bonuses for determining the market value of the item, but do not modify attack or damage bonuses (except where specifically noted). A single weapon cannot have a modified bonus (enhancement bonus plus special ability bonus equivalents, including those from character abilities and spells) higher than +10. A weapon with a special ability must also have at least a +1 enhancement bonus. Weapons cannot possess the same special ability more than once.

Some magic weapons have special abilities. Specifically, special abilities are for magic weapons. If some masterwork weapons also had special abilities, it would be stated in the masterwork weapons section just like it is in the magic weapons section, no?

But, as stated, when a belief is held, and that belief benefits the believer (not going anywhere near anthropogenic climate change here!), logic, proof, and rational thought can often do little to sway the believer. Good luck.


PRD/equipment wrote:

Masterwork Weapons

A masterwork weapon is a finely crafted version of a normal weapon. Wielding it provides a +1 enhancement bonus on attack rolls.
...
All magic weapons are automatically considered to be of masterwork quality. The enhancement bonus granted by the masterwork quality doesn't stack with the enhancement bonus provided by the weapon's magic.

The act of using it gives the MW a +1 on the attack roll. It is called out as distinct from being the magic weapon needed for further enchantment.

/cevah


As Cevah said, *wielding* the masterwork weapon is what provides the +1 enhancement bonus to attack rolls. The masterwork weapon itself does not *have* the +1 enhancement bonus; it only *provides* it.

Magic weapons, on the other hand, *have* a +1 enhancement bonus.

In order to possess special qualities a weapon must *have* at least a +1 enhancement bonus.

If your friend wants to get technical about language, just one-up him.

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