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Looking up on improvised weapons, it states:
To determine the size category and appropriate damage for an improvised weapon, compare its relative size and damage potential to the weapon list to find a reasonable match.
1) Does that means that if a Greataxe is used as an improvised thrown weapon, its damage would be a 1d12, the normal damage for a great axe?
2) What if a larger then weapon sized item is used as an improvised thrown weapon? Say a large iron cauldron? What would the damage be then?
1.
It is possible to throw a weapon that isn't designed to be thrown (that is, a melee weapon that doesn't have a numeric entry in the Range column on the following weapon tables), and a character who does so takes a –4 penalty on the attack roll. Throwing a light or one-handed weapon is a standard action, while throwing a two-handed weapon is a full-round action. Regardless of the type of weapon, such an attack scores a threat only on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a critical hit. Such a weapon has a range increment of 10 feet.
2. Damage from Falling Objects should provide some guidance - not exactly the question, but I'd use this as a GM to guide me.
If it's a greataxe, then you swing it like an axe (hold the stick end and swing it so the heavy end hits blade edge first. If it's an improvised weapon, the assumption is that you aren't doing that. Maybe you're a half-wit (literally) and you're holding the wrong end. Maybe you're just beating your enemy about the head and shoulders with the flat side of the axe-head instead of the edge. Whatever you're doing, you're not using it like an axe; you're improvising.
That means you never use the weapon's normal damage as the "reasonable match" for an improvised weapon. If you do, then it means you are managing to "improvise" the weapon to use it perfectly as it is designed to be used, in which case, you're not improvising at all.
Maybe holding it by the head and hitting with the handle means it damages like a staff. Maybe holding it by the handle and hitting with the flat end means it does damage like a greatclub. Or whatever. Maybe just split the difference and assume it does a d8 each time and don't worry about the mechanics of which end you use and how you use it - except that you're NOT using it like a greataxe (or you have stopped improvising).
Throwing it is no different, maybe a greatclub if it's just whirling through the air and hitting a target mid-whirl, or maybe a trident if the thrower tries to throw it pointy-end first (or maybe a spear, but I like trident better).
As for throwing a cauldron, well, no weapon is like that. I would probably just assume it does the damage of whatever is the highest damaging 1H throwing weapon (d8) but its bludgeoning, of course.
Note that this is, of course, entirely up to each GM to figure out.
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Without Improvised Weapon Mastery the most damage that a two-handed Improvised Melee Weapon can do is 1d8.
Improvised Weapons have always been largely subject to GM fiat, even in PFS, but if it's big, and heavy, and you're throwing it, aim for damage to be around 1d6 or 1d8 (1d8 or 2d6 with IWM).
It's about the most reasonable compromise.
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Thanks for the replies.
I'm a little more confused now... so...
@Nefreet,
1) I can't find the entry where it says improved weapons have a damage cap/chart/listed damage, is this based solely off Improvised Weapon Mastery's damage list?
1a) Does this also means that with Improvised Weapon Mastery a thrown greataxe would deal 2d6 damage?
@DM_Blake
2) What if the character has a feat like Two-Handed Thrower? Which has a description text of "You hurl weapons with both hands and with great force, sometimes using a whirling technique to send your weapon flying through the air at tremendous speeds."
As a GM, would it be ok to allow the greataxe damage if the player can argue that his character would have thrown it in such a way as the above text? Or justify the lower damage as per your description of a greatclub?
@GM Lamplighter, Thanks for highlighting this rule.
3) So as per the Thrown Weapons section of Melee and Ranged Weapons under Weapons, does it mean you CAN throw any weapon as per that weapon and NOT AS AN IMPROVISED weapon?
Example, throw a Greataxe as a Greataxe and not throwing it as an improvised weapon.
4) If you have a feat like Raging Hurler and Quick draw, you can actually throw Greataxes up to your usual normal rate of attacks, while raging?
Raging Hurler - While raging, you can throw a two-handed weapon as a standard action, and you double the range increment for weapons you throw. If you also have the Quick Draw feat, you can throw two-handed weapons at your full normal rate of attacks. Further, you can pick up an unattended object that you can use as a improvised weapon within your reach as part of the attack action to throw that item.
5) Also on Raging Hurler + quick draw, does this only works with actual twohanded weapons, like Greataces? Or can you use this feat to throw one-handed weapons using two hands? Example, throw a bunch of Battleaxes instead of Greataxes?
6) Based on the Thrown Weapons section of Melee and Ranged Weapons under Weapons, you can throw non ranged weapons with a couple of listed penalties, so why do GMs treat non-ranged thrown weapons as improvised? Doesn't the listed penalties, like -4 to hit and more time needed for the attack already penalise using non-range weapons this way?
7) Or is improvised used only when a player wants to do something like throw a two-handed weapon as a standard action?
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1) I can't find the entry where it says improved weapons have a damage cap/chart/listed damage, is this based solely off Improvised Weapon Mastery's damage list?
1a) Does this also means that with Improvised Weapon Mastery a thrown greataxe would deal 2d6 damage?
Improvised weapons classically aren't as effective as real weapons without some added investment. Figuring them out is equal parts art and science, with great potential for abuse, and by their very nature will be up for table variation. I am aware of no set chart, and I don't know how there ever could be one.
If you look at the medium-sized weapons charts, you'll see that the most damage a weapon really ever deals (with maybe one extreme exception) is 2d6 for something two-handed. If you take a tally of listed improvised weapons, they all seem to deal damage one step less than that of a similarly shaped real weapon. No improvised weapon should really be as effective as the most damaging of real weapons, so a two-handed improvised weapon should probably be capped at 1d8 (one step below 2d6). That way, when you take Improvised Weapon Mastery, your improvised weapons can finally deal as much damage as real weapons.
And that's pretty much where I and others come to our conclusions. It's admittedly just our opinion, but it's more informed and researched than a guess. Your opinion may be that the damage should be capped at 1d10 rather than 1d8.
Throwing improvised weapons gets even sketchier. Personally, I would lower the damage one step below that of an improvised melee weapon. I base this on looking at ranged weapons compared to melee weapons. A two-handed Greatsword deals 2d6. A two-handed Longbow deals 1d8. With maybe a couple extreme exceptions, ranged weapons deal less damage than melee weapons, and so I carry that logic to improvised weapons as well. You may see it differently.
Hope that helps. It's discussions like this that have kept me from making an improvised weapon specialist. It's just too risky outside of a homegame with firmly established boundaries.
I may be overlooking something obvious but as far as I can see, there's no rules-basis for an improvised weapon automatically dealing less damage than the "appropriate" analogue from the weapon list. The Improvised Weapons rule calls out an attack roll penalty only. Hitting an enemy with a club-sized stick seems like it should deal the exact same amount of damage as the same-sized club, for instance.
The closest weapon to what you're trying to use the greataxe for is a throwing axe so hitting an enemy with a thrown greataxe should therefore deal damage equivalent to an appropriately sized throwing axe. A regular throwing axe is 2 lbs. while a regular greataxe is 6 lbs. (more than twice but less than four times the weight), so I'd round it down to being equivalent to a "Large" throwing axe which would deal 1d8 damage.
1.It is possible to throw a weapon that isn't designed to be thrown (that is, a melee weapon that doesn't have a numeric entry in the Range column on the following weapon tables), and a character who does so takes a –4 penalty on the attack roll. Throwing a light or one-handed weapon is a standard action, while throwing a two-handed weapon is a full-round action. Regardless of the type of weapon, such an attack scores a threat only on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a critical hit. Such a weapon has a range increment of 10 feet.2. Damage from Falling Objects should provide some guidance - not exactly the question, but I'd use this as a GM to guide me.
This bit of rules text right here is all you need. It calls out everything that changes. Damage die is not one of those things, so a thrown greataxe will require a full-round action, a ranged attack roll at -4, do 1d12+str slashing damage, with a crit mod of 20/x2, and have a range increment of 10 feet.
I may be overlooking something obvious but as far as I can see, there's no rules-basis for an improvised weapon automatically dealing less damage than the "appropriate" analogue from the weapon list. The Improvised Weapons rule calls out an attack roll penalty only. Hitting an enemy with a club-sized stick seems like it should deal the exact same amount of damage as the same-sized club, for instance..
True, but there is a logic-basis for doing different damage.
Bob: I'm a fully trained fighter and I fight with a greataxe. If I hit an orc, I'll do 1d12 damage.
Fred: I'm a farmer with no training at all in greataxe, but I'm clever so I'll improvise. I don't know what I'm doing, but when I hit an orc, I'll do 1d12 damage.
Bob: Wait, uh, you don't know what you're doing, so why do you get to do as much damage as I do?
Fred: *shrugs*
Bob: So, are you using the axe like a professional, holding it right, swinging with good balance and precise strikes?
Fred: How the heck should I know? I've never even seen one of these things before. I M P R O V I S I N G. You know, making it up as I go.
Bob: And yet, you're just as deadly with it as I am, even with all my training?
Fred: Well, you might hit a little more often, but yeah, if I hit, I'm just as deadly as you with all your training.
Bob: *glares*
Fred: So, uh, Mr. trained axe-master, could you tell me one thing?
Bob: I guess...
Fred: Which end of this thing am I supposed to hold, anyway?
Fred: "walks off, muttering and shaking his head in disbelief*
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In short, there is only one reason to improvise: You have no clue about how to use the thing as a weapon. If it really is a weapon, and you hold it right and swing it right and hit things right, then you're NOT improvising. So just make a normal attack roll, with the non-proficiency penalty if applicable, and then make a normal damage roll - because you're using the weapon correctly.
On the other hand, if you really ARE improvising, then there is no logical reason to assume you do the same damage as someone who uses the weapon correctly. That's why you find a comparable weapon based on general size and shape rather than simply using the stats of your actual weapon.
All that said, you'd have to be a real dimwit, like, break out the strait-jacket and put this guy somewhere where he can't hurt himself, to look at a normal ordinary melee weapon and be unable to figure out how to make a normal, ordinary attack with it. NOBODY ever improvises with a greataxe; they just attack with it. Not good at it? No worries, that's what the non-proficiency penalty is for. But improvising with melee weapons whose correct use is obvious even to really dumb, ignorant people, makes no sense at all (unless you have some weird improvised-weapon build - in which case, you should not have your cake and eat it too)
Long story short: Improvise without using it correctly, or use it correctly without improvising, but those two ideas are logically incompatible.
1.This bit of rules text right here is all you need. It calls out everything that changes. Damage die is not one of those things, so a thrown greataxe will require a full-round action, a ranged attack roll at -4, do 1d12+str slashing damage, with a crit mod of 20/x2, and have a range increment of 10 feet.It is possible to throw a weapon that isn't designed to be thrown (that is, a melee weapon that doesn't have a numeric entry in the Range column on the following weapon tables), and a character who does so takes a –4 penalty on the attack roll. Throwing a light or one-handed weapon is a standard action, while throwing a two-handed weapon is a full-round action. Regardless of the type of weapon, such an attack scores a threat only on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a critical hit. Such a weapon has a range increment of 10 feet.2. Damage from Falling Objects should provide some guidance - not exactly the question, but I'd use this as a GM to guide me.
This is the most relevant comment here.
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Using an improvised weapon is not the same as using an actual weapon that you are not proficient in. The rules for each case are different. The farmer in your example hits less often, which is how his lack of skill is modeled. I'm pretty sure he would know to hit with the sharp end, though - non-proficiency is not idiocy.
Remember, AC and HP are somewhat of an abstraction - you don't actually "miss" every time you roll less than the AC, just like you don't actually land a solid hit every time you roll higher than AC. No one can actually take 10 greataxe hits to the gut and live, no matter how many HP they have. Most "hits" are scratches, or hits that are dodged but used up some of your combat stamina/luck/whatever.
If it is already a weapon, then you use non-proficiency rules (and throwing a melee weapon rules, if appropriate). If it's not a weapon, you use improvised weapon rules.
NOTE: I made a mistake in my previous post regarding the weight of the greataxe. I used the weight of the battleaxe (6 lbs.) on accident. The greataxe is actually supposed to weigh 12 lbs., which is more than 4 times the weight but less than 8 times the weight of the throwing axe, making it equivalent to a Huge throwing axe, dealing 2d6 damage according to the new FAQ on weapon size changes, which phases out the 1d12.
To avoid confusion, could the OP please specify whether or not the character in question is proficient with the greataxe under normal circumstances?
If it really is being used as an improvised weapon as well as being thrown, I'll stick with my 2d6 answer above (based on being similar to a Huge throwing axe), but if the character does have proficiency then GM Lamplighter's rule quote would lead to the answer being 1d12, as noted by Darigaaz and alexd. It comes to basically the same thing.
@DM_Blake: Getting hit with an axe being used as an axe would deal an axe's damage regardless of whether the enemy is proficient. Two possible exceptions would be if they were specifically trying to use it as a club or spear, in which case you would use their damage die, as appropriate. Fighter Bob would have no attack penalty, higher BAB, higher crit multiplier and probably Power Attack so that's where they would distinguish themselves from farmer Fred. I don't agree that the weapon would deal less damage automatically, before modifiers.
None of you are reading what I wrote. I repeatedly mentioned that improvising with an axe makes no sense and referred to half-wits, dimwits, morons, and strait jackets. I specifically said NOBODY would do this. Maybe some kind of mindless plant alien from another world. Probably not.
If, IF, IF anyone improvises with a greataxe then they are NOT merely non-proficient - we have rules for that. Specifically, the non-proficient penalty. Such a person (non-proficient) still uses it correctly (holding the haft, swinging edge-first, etc.), but is just bad at it. That is NOT using it as an "Improvised Weapon". That is merely using it without proficiency.
Using it as an "Improvised Weapon" is NOT that. Which means, by default, it MUST be using it wrong. Incorrectly. In some half-wit, dimwit, moronic, alien plant from outer-space kind of way.
If you do THAT, then it's not going to get a d12 damage die - it's just not big enough for that much damage when it's being used as a poorly-balanced club.
Using it as an "Improvised Weapon" is NOT that. Which means, by default, it MUST be using it wrong. Incorrectly. In some half-wit, dimwit, moronic, alien plant from outer-space kind of way.
It certainly isn't using it as designed, however there may well be a good reason for using it wrong. Something with a lot of DR against slashing for example, might make you want to improvise your axe to hit like a club instead.
I agree with you about the damage though. Improvised weapon with something that is actually a weapon does mean using it - not - as designed and it won't get any more damage than any other big heavy thing you can swing.
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Can someone help answer the below questions? (I posted them above, but no one gave an answer.)
@GM Lamplighter, Thanks for highlighting this rule.
3) So as per the Thrown Weapons section of Melee and Ranged Weapons under Weapons, does it mean you CAN throw any weapon as per that weapon and NOT AS AN IMPROVISED weapon?
Example, throw a Greataxe as a Greataxe and not throwing it as an improvised weapon.
4) If you have a feat like Raging Hurler and Quick draw, you can actually throw Greataxes up to your usual normal rate of attacks, while raging?
Raging Hurler - While raging, you can throw a two-handed weapon as a standard action, and you double the range increment for weapons you throw. If you also have the Quick Draw feat, you can throw two-handed weapons at your full normal rate of attacks. Further, you can pick up an unattended object that you can use as a improvised weapon within your reach as part of the attack action to throw that item.
5) Also on Raging Hurler + quick draw, does this only works with actual twohanded weapons, like Greataces? Or can you use this feat to throw one-handed weapons using two hands? Example, throw a bunch of Battleaxes instead of Greataxes?
6) Based on the Thrown Weapons section of Melee and Ranged Weapons under Weapons, you can throw non ranged weapons with a couple of listed penalties, so why do GMs treat non-ranged thrown weapons as improvised? Doesn't the listed penalties, like -4 to hit and more time needed for the attack already penalise using non-range weapons this way?
7) Or is improvised used only when a player wants to do something like throw a two-handed weapon as a standard action?