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WHO ARE YOU?
I'm Protoman. This is the second playtest I'm doing (first one was WANG FIRE!!! Pyrokineticist), hopefully will get a bunch of games in before the playtest is over!
HOW ARE YOU PLAYTESTING?
PFS. Scenarios won't be handpicked specifically for vigilante usefulness so I'm gonna have to get creative if I ever wanna see my class abilities in play.
WHAT SCENARIOS ARE YOU PLAYING
Whatever I can get that's scheduled that I can jump in on for my subtier. My local PFS groups haven't scheduled up July schedules yet.
WHAT ARE YOU PLAYTESTING?
Looking the vigilante class over, Avenger Vigilante certainly seems the weakest/blandest one. So that's the specialization I'm going with!
UMMM WHY AN AVENGER?
I've done the kineticist as a pryo and felt that the warlock would be too similar, yet less fun.
(Yes to those who say warlock is stronger than kineticist, warlocks aren't as fun! Sure they can do more ranged damage at higher levels, but melee kineticists beat out melee warlocks damage-wise, and in-play kineticists are funner than spellcasters because I can use my wild talents WAY more often than spells.)
The zealot feels too much of a weaker inquisitor.
I don't feel stealth PCs can really benefit from their abilities all that much in PFS unless they got invisibility. And the stalker isn't as combat-heavy as I'd like it.
I've never played a greatsword wielding fighter-type in PFS before, and a class with bunch of skill points, social skills, and decent amount of bonus feats is better for PFS than a regular fighter.
WHAT'S YOUR CURRENT BUILD AND WHY?
I decided that concept-wise, the Crimson Falcon is a crime fighter vigilante by night, sarcastic yet-diligent Chelish lawyer by day. Anyone played PFS 6-05: Slave Ships of Absalom? Remember Solicitor Salbus of the Red Letter? He's awesome! Anyhoo, let's say Crimson Falcon works there as a junior associate in the day and uses the resources there and finds out slaver information to be a thorn in their side at night. Yes, the Chelish lawyer is with the Liberty's Edge (as most my characters are lol) who calls himself the Falcon for obvious Andoren imagery so no one suspects he's actually Chelish.
Build-wise, avenger supports the 2-handed weapon build, especially with the Vital Strike route. Aaaand there's not a lot of feats to specialize from there so I'll probably be throwing in Combat Reflexes since the AoOs are gonna be wicked nice thanks to Vital Strike.
I'm goin with Cloud Strife from FFVII (as if working for AVALANCHE is the Vigilante identity, and crazy in the head bartender/delivery boy is the Social identity). And for lack of an imagination when it comes to names (seriously, my last playtest character is named Wang Fire for the puns and dirty jokes potential) I'll call Crimson Falcon's Social identity "Jak Strife", minor Chelish noble working as a junior associate at the Red Letter, and using his noble status for extended vacations or weaseled his way under the foreign affairs branch to justify long trips outside Absalom for PFS missions. Also, Jak Strife is NOT a Pathfinder, whereas the Crimson Falcon begrudgingly is for anti-slavery potential missions and Liberty's Edge contacts. Jak Strife is also willing to defend Pathfinders in the court of law if they're ever accused of typical murder-hobo activities. Business has been good.
Yes I've mostly talked about the Social identity stuff. That's because this is the vigilante class and I feel it's important to have that aspect down to properly get the feel of the Vigilante identity.
So to paint a picture on what he looks like:
Crimson Falcon: Greatsword. Andoren military parade armor (but Cheliax colours of Red and Black instead of Blue and White). Red feather fringe on the sleeves (I'm not sure on this yet). Steel Visored falconhead-shaped helmet like the ones SOLDIER have in FFVII.
Jak Strife: Blond hair with widow's peak. Purple-coloured eyes (emphasizing Azlanti heritage). Glasses. Black courtier's outfit (or whatever the equivalent it is for a business suit in Absalom-setting). Basicially if Cloud Strife was an undercover Turk.
RACE: Chelish Human
STATS: STR 18, DEX 14, CON 14, INT 12, WIS 8, CHA 10
I usually go 7-8 Charisma and make up for the social skills with Student of Philosophy or Clever Wordplay traits to shore up bluff or diplomacy, but the vigilante class also requires decent disguise and intimidate for a bunch of different reasons. I'll play with a Wis 8 for level one and see if I need to increase it for the 2nd level rebuild later.
TRAITS: Reckless; no one's gonna be able to convince me that someone who fights crime in the night, or alternatively commits crime, wouldn't have Acrobatics to jump from rooftop to rooftop for alternate entrance-making or escaping authorities (works for both good and bad vigilantes!). Right now the second trait is Blood of Dragons for low-light vision; that isn't set in stone and I'm up for changing it for level 2 if I can think of something else better or if anyone has any recommendations.
EXPECTED FEATS AND SPECIAL ABILITIES
I'm throwing in what I plan on picking ahead of time since THF doesn't require much beyond Power Attack and would like input from others about the effectiveness of the potential build.
1 - Dual Identity (Jak Strife/Crimson Falcon). Social Grace (hoping the +20 disguise can be applied for pretending to be a non-Pathfinder if Jak isn't one). Vigilante Specialiation (avenger). Power Attack, Furious Focus - It'd be useful for level 1 since I only got one attack and damage is the only way I'd really be contributing at that level. Will rebuild at 2 and pick up Dodge.
2 - Talent: Signature Weapon (Weapon Focus greatsword)
3 - Renown (lesser) - not gonna be terribly useful in PFS. Mobility
4 - Talent: Combat Skill (Combat Reflexes)
5 - Startling Appearance. Combat Patrol - For lack of anything better to do with my feats, I'm thinking of giving Combat Patrol a whirl when I hit 5. Could mesh well with Vital Punishment in the beginning of combat.
6 - Talent: Vital Punishment (Vital Strike - Too bad it's only once per round for the AoO, but hitting with 4d6+12 after moving into a decent position with Mobility ain't too bad.
SKILLS: Acrobatics, Bluff, Climb, Disguise, Intimidate, Knowledge local, Perception, Profession barrister, Stealth,
ARMOR CLASS: 15. Gaaah so low. Don't want medium armor as that would slow me down and penalize my acrobatics and stealth too much. Armor silence and armor skin are both too pricy for what little they do.
GEAR = Greatsword, light crossbow with grappling bolt and silk rope. Sling.
SCENARIO
#01-45: Delirium's Tangle (Subtier 1-2). Not the best scenario for a heavily social character, but it was the only one scheduled that would fit my level. Beggar vigilantes can't be choosers (unless that's their Social identity I guess)
The Crimson Falcon is starting at level 1 with no GM credits. The playtest caught me by surprise and I didn't have any GM credit babies ready.
STATS: STR 18, DEX 14, CON 14, INT 12, WIS 8, CHA 10
Didn't feel the need to change any of it. I've been fine with the Accuracy/Damage so far Con>Dex. Plus Con 18, favored class benefit (HP) and D8 hit die means I get minimum +10 HP every level (can't weait for +2 Con belt), and that's a nice buffer for all the burn I'll be picking up in the future.
HP = 10
TRAITS: I kept Reckless, but instead of Blood of Dragons I had Secret Revolutionary for the +1 to Will saves against mind-affecting effects; that was a mistake traveling around in the dark sucked without low-light and mocked by party members for needing a light source despite being "stealth capable". Rebuilt it back to Blood of Dragons after the game.
FEATS: Power Attack and Furious Focus.
SKILLS [RANKS]: Acrobatics +6 [1]. Bluff +4 [1]. Climb +7 [1]. Disguise +4 [1]. Intimidate +4 [1]. Knowledge (loca1) +5 [1]. Perception +3 [1]. Profession (barrister) +3 [1]. Stealth +5 [1].
PARTY
Level 1 Human Vigilante = Crimson Falcon
Level 1 Dwarf Druid with medium snake animal companion = A druid that that breaks type and doesn't pick up something with more than 1 natural attack? Whoa. Snake's climb speed and scent were useful.
Level 2 Half-Orc Warpriest = Spent all his PP on useful wants. Nice.
Level 3 Half-Elf Sorcerer (draconic) = Player was making another dragon sorcerer. Also uses elven curve blade. Spends first round most combats to cast Shield.
Level 4 Human Whirling Dervish Swashbuckler = Main damage dealer. 1d6+10 with precise strike and with a ~+10 to attack with his scimitar.
SET UP
The GM and party were game with my vigilante silliness. I atfirst suggested Dreng or whichever Venture Captain would have notes sent to my drop sites for illicit/secret missions. GM countered with VCs sending floating lanterns into the sky with falcon symbol. We agreed on a burning kite in the shape of large bird would send Crimson Falcon out running. He's not one for subtlety.
We get ambushed by a couple of feral mining beetles. Falcon rolls low in initiative and the beetles get killed by the party.
:(
We find a chamber that's covered in a mysterious bronze gate that ought to be the entrance to the maze. The gate, walls and floors are covered in some freaky script that gave the sorcerer a gibbering headache when he tried to read it with read magic.
Morlock jumps down from the ceiling. Falcon rolls low in initiative and the morlock dies before he gets to act (again. This will be an ongoing theme).
:( :(
Not a real testament to the avenger or vigilante yet as he's still level 1 and several party members hit pretty hard. Solo or 2 monsters in 1-2 subtier won't provide much challenge.
Navigating the maze was....long. Thankfully the warpriest and druid had decent survival and the party did pretty good aiding the leader of the skill check to track the minotaur. But yeesh. So many traps.
We finally get the heart of the maze and more bronze doors. But before we can do anything we get dropped into a dimensional space with an angry worm thingy. Despite rolling low in initiative, by the time Falcon's turn came around, the worm was still alive and he finally got a chance to hit something. Thankfully he didn't flub the roll and actually critted with his greatsword while power attacking. 4d6+18 and scored average damage of 32. Worm was gone!
Past the first set of bronze doors, we find another set of doors with windows showing bunch of gears inside the door and a buttload of buttons and dials and levers. Falcon rolls his eyes behind his visored helmet about the annoyingness of gnome engineering. Engaging with it, the room we're in gets locked and water starts filling it from chutes in the ceiling. NO ONE excelled at this elaborate trap. Druid and Sorcerer tried to break the door we came in from. Warpriest got stuck in the middle of the room trying to swim to the exit door where the swashbuckler was trying to do intelligence checks (+1 modifier) and I was simply trying to bash in the lock mechanisms/door itself.
Took 5-6 rounds of embarassing rolls before we got through it.
The final encounter against some dessicated-looking elf suspended up 20 ft in the middle of a huge room. We'd have to climb chains to get to catwalks just to engage it in melee. The druid, enlarged by the warpriest, sent his snake to a one set of chains to climb while he went to another. Swashbuckler ran to the farthest set of chains. Warpriest and Sorcerer went to check on the unconscious albino minotaur prince on a couch. From the entrance, Crimson Falcon actually scored a hit with his sling, doing 7 damage.
But the following round the elf moves his panels to the machine he's strapped to and gave himself total cover in my direction.
I tried to get close and fire off a grappling bolt to the catwalk in front of the elf, but missed terribly. Had to go the long way.
The others in the party were having trouble climbing or hitting when some eventually got to the elf. One round after I double moved on the catwalk to reach the elf, the swasubuckler kills him.
:(
We looted, rescued the Minotaur Prince and scored a pretty wicked boon that would only serve to enhance the Crimson Falcon's reputation in Absalom. Sending the elf corpse to the Kyonin Embassy got us an explanation on his background. Crimson Falcon checks out a "rescue a captive in a scenario" box off his Faction Sheet. The next day Jak Strife approaches Nuar Spiritskin to see if he wants to pursue legal action against Torch putting him in danger with the maze business and scores 10 gp for his legal fees.
CONCLUSIONS
I'm pretty fine with the vigilante's performance at level 1. Any underperfomance on my end was mostly due to bad rolls. Full BAB at level 1 was nice for actual good feat choices. If the rest of the party was closer to level 1-2, I'd probably have done more, but more like for Crimson Falcon to have died too, so I can't complain.
However a Level 1 Vigilante doesn't really have any specific or defining class feature that could be used in most situations that would define or at least distinguish the class. Social Grace's +20 disguise check for the Social identity to avoid being recognized as someone not of polite society is not gonna see a lot of play if one's actually careful to keep Social and Vigilante lives separate. The avenger, stalker, warlock, and zealot's base abilities basically allow them to emulate the basics of another class, but I feel they'd need a vigilante talent right at level 1 to get the ball rolling on giving them impression they can survive to level 2 or make it look like they're not [insert other class name]-Lite, the calorie and substance-free version of classic favourites.
The Avenger is basically a razzle-dazzle Fighter but with no accuracy/damage boosts and less hit points. Nice number of bonus combat feats though but the talents are lacking.
Armor Silence and Armor Skin? I can't justify ever picking either up when I plan on being in light armor for full speed (or mithral breastplate when I can afford it though even that's a maybe with such a low Dex modifier). How about a talent that lets me move regular speed in medium armor. Let it require Vigilante level 4 or 6 or whatever. I'd happily pick it up!
Close the Gap's ok but I don't think it works with my current feat line up all that well.
Combat Skill is the one to pick up when nothing else works. Can we get any language on 1/4 vigilante levels stacking with fighter levels via multiclassing or not. There's already debate in the forums if that even works if it's not mentioned.
Environmental Weapon isn't worth it when Combat Skill (Catch Off-Guard or Throw Anything) is an option. Though I suppose Environmental Weapon is melee and/or ranged capable. But unless it gets a boost to the attack somehow, the opportunity cost of environmental weapon is too high. How about +2 to attack and damage with the terrain's improvised weapons?
Favored Maneuver is pretty sweet, assuming it lets me skip the prerequisites, which I'm currently assuming is the case.
I need some clarification for Fist of the Avenger. Is the unarmed strike meant to be a backup weapon (which requires a whole talent/feat for)? If so, sure it's fine, but who has room to pick it up? Is it supposed to allow the avenger to make unarmed strikes a main weapon/tactic? If so it needs more of a boost besides +1/4 level in damage. Maybe +1/3 levels in attack and damage bonus. The avenger doesn't have weapon training, flurry, increases unarmed damage dice in higher levels, and magically enchaning unarmed strikes is prohibitively expensive in general; Fist of the Avenger would seriously need a bump before we can get the brawling slugger vigilante many hold in our hearts.
Heavy Training? Maybe this should go with Assault Training as a base ability. Or better yet, lets us ignore speed penalty to armor instead of heavy armor proficiency. Would rather get something that's not already doable with a feat.
Living Shield would be worthwhile if Fist of the Avenger power gets bumped up.
Mad Rush. If developers are gonna stick with the additional -4 penalty to AC IN ADDITION to the regular -2 penalty while charging, can we get this ability at a lower level? Like around 8? The avenger isn't exactly more dangerous than a beast-totem barbarian, or pummeling charging brawler/monk, or large cat companion to warrant such a severe AC penalty for an ability at such a high level. Ok just to make it clear, THE AVENGER IS MUCH WEAKER THAN THE OTHER POUNCING OPTIONS SO THE AC PENALTY IS TOO HIGH. If insisting on level 12 and PFS characters will basically never see it in play except for Seeker Arcs, at least take out the AC penalty.
EDIT: Actually. Further thinking about it, those other examples of pounce got conditions placed on them: barbarian has to be raging (though that's a small concession as they have ton of rage rounds by then), brawlers and monks have to be unarmed (though brawler can have brawling armor and monks can be using unchained flurry), and animals have average BAB (but potentially crazy high strength and number of attacks via natural weapons). Still -6 AC alogether just for charging is gonna get the avenger vigilante killed before the target gets close to being killed.
Nothing Can Stop Me. I'm gonna be honest. I'm probably picking this up simply because I'm gonna be saving up for an adamantine greatsword anyways. Looking at the Breaking and Entering rules in the PRD, should be able to break through strong wooden doors easy enough. Pity I can't use Vital Strike with the free action to attack, might get through an iron door.
Shield of Fury is good for the sword+board route. It's basically free situational feats for the price of one talent, no complaints here.
Signature Weapon is simple but good. The class could use more attack and damage boosters though.
Suckerpunch. Interacts well with all the vigilante "Appearance" abilities.
Unexpected Strike. If a character was picking up Quick Draw for whatever reason to begin with, sure ok.
Unkillable. The Die Hard feat is already bit of a death trap option. If one's still standing, one tends to keep getting beat on. Can Unkillable also add maybe 1/2 vigilante levels to the -Con score before death maybe? Well I guess that's too similar to Human's Heart of the Wilderness. How about 1/3 vigilante levels?
Vital Punishment. This is probably the most unique thing about the avenger so far: An extra use for Vital Strike. Can it be more than once per round with another talent? Also, instead can it be declared AFTER a AoO roll is made instead of having to declare it before? AoO's don't happen that often as is if the GM is smart about it or it'll apply once per creature via reach weapons, and then it's a full-attack slug fest til one of the other is dead.
Social Grace: Can the +20 Disguise bonus work for bluff checks going, "No. I'm not that homicidal vigilante you ran into last night." What's helping direct denials against accusations? Just hoping one never gets caught in someone's attention? I'm hoping for Pathfinder Society, it can be "I'm not a Pathfinder, unlike that vigilante you're looking for" (+20 disguise/bluff versus angry Apsis agents)
Renown: With how it's currently working, I'm not sure how useful it is. 200 individials/1 village? That's like an adventure destination where one hopes to leave immediately afterwards because you can't buy anything worthwhile or sell any loot there. Much less stick around for a whole week. Can Renown (lesser) start off at 5000 people/1 large town or two communities of 2000 people/ small towns? It would actually start being useful at close to the end of an Adventure Path book 1. Heck Sandpoint has a population of 1240. Trunau has 780. Those are the smallest starting communities I can think of for the APs (not including the ship-based ones).
Loyal Aid: This is such a minor thing that it ought to be come included with Renown (since it only works in the renown communities) or start earlier than level 7.
Appearance abilities: These seem cool. I like the different effects for each. Though I guess the avenger is gonna have the toughest time getting the "catching target unaware" compared to the abilities of the other specializations.
Quick Change: OK I vote this gets moved to level 5 or something. Having it at level 13 is like a mean joke.
Everyman: Level 19 for a more specific version of disguise self?
Vengeance Strike: It's hard for me to judge capstone abilities because I never get that far, but this looks pretty cool in how flexible it can be.
Hopefully can get some more play in the next week or two. Moving this weekend and summer trips can put a hamper on potential gaming.
Oh man! Black Talon sounds awesome and Eagle Knight appropriate!
What weapon style are you thinking of going with?
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Tried out a Stalker in PFS tonight. Named him Azrael and having him look all angel of death while weilding a large sword.
Stealth worked out ok with the Hidden Strike and the Leave an Opening ability was awesome when I was able to use it.
I also have an issue with the Renown ability as I don't see it being useful very often at all. I would rather get some more interesting abilities involving my social persona. In PFS in particular I don't see this being of any use.
Oh hey, Kev! Glad to hear you got to try out Vigilante.
Right now Renown is about as useful as property vanities in PFS. I'm hoping that when the PFS rules of Ultimate Intrigue/Vigilante ever come along, we can have Renown apply to neighbourhoods of Absalom like the Townhouse vanity, or specific city of our choice at higher levels of Renown.
Great feedback and playtest report Protoman. I look forward to further adventures of the Crimson Falcon.
Oh man! Black Talon sounds awesome and Eagle Knight appropriate!
What weapon style are you thinking of going with?
Definitely greatsword. I think I'm going to drop the "Black" and just call him "The Talon". He'll have parade armor that will be dark blue and dark grey (think "Batman" colors) instead of blue and white along with a dark blue kerchief covering his mouth and nose to hide his identity.
Finishing up the character tonight for play tomorrow in "Slave Ships of Absalom". Should be fun!
Hah! Well when you and your party start your investigations in Slave Ships of Absalom...
Now that Jason clarified the use of renown within a community:
That was the intent.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
I think I can get renown to work great with Crimson Falcon.
I'd select Misery Row, a street in the eastern edge of the Coins district where slave trade is legal, as my "smaller neighborhood in a larger settlement" 200 individual community. Social identity Jak Strife the lawyer probably would have helped broker some deals there or upheld some laws to people's advantage, and would enjoy the social identity renown benefit of NPC's better starting attitude. Crimson Falcon, on the other hand, preys on those profiting within Misery Row.
And if that does work, if the vigilante is level 3, his +4 intimidate bonus while in vigilante mode still work within 3 miles (miles = vigilante level) of Misery Row despite still being in a larger community and different district. Also if higher level, 5-7 miles covers a lot, if not most/all of Absalom depending where the renown community was at.
Or alternatively I can set the renown community to be around the Red Letter law office for the social benefit. Misery Row and the rest of Coins district would be well within the 3 mile limit of the vigilante benefit when I'd first get Renown (lesser).