Breakdown of the Avenger


Ultimate Intrigue Playtest General Discussion


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So I am going through a tertiary read through of the different specializations and I am finding a or of things I would like to see changed. The main thing is that both the Avenger and the Stalker end up being worse classes than the base classes they emulate.

The only things that really separate the different specializations are the talents and the one thing that they get for taking the specialization, for the Avenger, it's full BAB without the d10 HD (which should be fixed imo.)

Armor Silence, Armor Skin
These talents are weak individually, and both of them feel like I don't want to waste a talent on them. If they were combined I would feel a lot better about using my talent on it.

Close the Gap
This talent is okay, it seems more like a meh Combat Feat that specific builds would wanna pick up. The 20ft thing makes it kinda not that useful, and you already don't provoke when you charge. You could probably get rid of this one and no one would notice.

Combat Skill
I actually love this one, this is the one most Avengers will be spending their talents on instead of the half talents listed.

Environmental Weapon
This is a cool ability, but not one that I think people would waste a talent on unless they were making a very specific build for improvised weapons. Even then, at later levels you need to have magic going on so this talent is another one that seems cool but really doesn't improve the class and probably won't get used.

Favored Maneuver
This is another niche build one but unlike the Improvised Weapon based talent this one I can actually see getting used. This one should be kept.

Fist of the Avenger
I love this one, but I find it weak. It needs to scale better, capping out earlier and having a maximum. Maybe whenever your BAB reaches +4/8/12/16 have it go up by 1, and cap it at 5. This talent should also let him count his level as 1/2 monk level for picking up feats, maybe even increase his damage die by one or two steps.

Heavy Training
Another expected ability, this one wouldn't be so bad if Armor Silence and Armor Skin were combined into one.

Living Skin
I don't like this one, not because it's a bad ability, but because it seems like a waste to have it be exclusive to the vigilante. This seems more like something that should just be part of the grapple mechanics and that I should not be wasting a talent on it. This one can probably be nixed and baked into the Grapple maneuver.

Mad Rush
This needs to be a Combat Feat, not an ability. Remove this talent and turn it into a feat available to all BAB 11 characters.

Nothing Can Stop Me
This one will be so useless in actual practice unless he is running through literal paper doors. He'll NEED adamantine weapons to use this ability at all and he doesn't really have anything that improves his damage like other classes have. Nix this.

Shield of Fury
I actually really like this one, although a better designed game would have this be what Improved Shield Bash just does.

Signature Weapon
Better than a fighter feat, but not over powered at all. This one's a keeper. Plus it's like the only way to actually improve your damage which is a problem with the class.

Sucker Punch
This one is a major problem for the class. One of the very few ways for the class to actually increase his damage, and it's just a worse version of sneak attack. This needs to be nixed so there can be more room for the Stalker abilities.

Unexpected Strike
I'm not sure how much drawing a concealed weapon as a swift action is actually worth, considering you already have Quick Draw. I guess it's a neat way to still get a full round once per fight, but this really seems like another not very useful talent compared to just taking the feat and using the space and ink for something better.

Unkillable
Not a bad ability, but not a great one either. I personally don't see the value in it, but I can understand other players might.

Vital Punishment
Vital Strike on AOOs. That's cool, worth keeping.

Major problems with the specialization:
Lacks identity in class features, it's just a worse fighter that also gets more skills. It needs more talents that synergize well with each other, rather than building a talent tree for what ultimately adds up to one cool ability. As a primary non magical melee class, it sucks because It cannot keep up in to hit/damage with any other class. All it gets is Weapon Specializaton (at 8th level) and up to 4d6 sneak attack that can be used once per combat.

IMO it needs more scaling abilities that improve combat, similar to Studied Target or Weapon Training, otherwise the class is just an NPC class.

A lot of the talents either should be feats, or shouldn't exist as is. Many of them would be better off as options to all characters.

Not the first time it's been said, but this really oughta be combined with the Stalker.


I like most of your analysis but I am not sure if I agree that Mad Rush should be a general feat. If you think everyone should have access to it then it probably should not be a feat at all (since literally every melee build would want/need it anyways). Really, I had hoped that the stamina system would give people some kind of limited pounce option, but that is not a real thing and instead something I homebrew to be true.

As such nder the current "pouncing problem" paradigm (where the mighty barbarian guards pounce behind a 3 power chain and mounted characters hide it behind 3 feats and 14 ranks in ride), I think Mad Rush is a fine signature ability of sorts. Here is something funny, though: I think Vital Punishment and Mad Rush are the closest to being "must have" powers for this class, but Mad Rush actually decreases the competitive advantage of picking up vital strike feats; that action is kind of weird.

I mostly wish that the avengers got a small scaling damage and accuracy bonus in the way fighters do. If you think this will step on the fighter's toes then perhaps the damage/bonus should scale slower (though replacing signature weapon with such a talent would sort of do this if only because the class would then never have access to improved weapon focus/specialization and would only get focus 1 and specialization 1 later on), be more restrictive (limiting the bonus to just one weapon), or be something that is more situational (I always seem to suggest extra accuracy from flanking for this).

Towards that last paragraph, perhaps a scaling bonus would be a good opportunity to fill a *less* specialized niche than the fighter currently does. Maybe you could switch out signature weapon for multiple talents that give attack and damage bonus to 3 or 4 weapons so the avenger can kind of have a suite of battle options. Perhaps the individual talents would be like 1. Weapon focus w/ 3 weapons, 2. Weapon Spec. w/3 weapons, 3. Improved weapon focus w/ 3 weapons, 4. Improved weapon spec. w/ 3 weapons. I would still say the class is way weaker than even the lowly fighter, but I think that would give the class some kind of interesting combat role.

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