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Handle animal is kinda vague, I could see it going two ways. You could rule that pushing the animal is legal, regardless of attitude. Or you could rule that the animal will not obey unless its mood is improved to at least "indifferent," which requires magic or wild empathy. I don't see either as being wrong.
Personally I either wouldn't allow the roll, or would rule the results insufficient regardless of the result (effectively the same thing).
Handle Animal doesn't let you convince an animal not to attack.
You're sorcerer is trying to use Handle Animal as though it were Wild Empathy.
Wild Empathy (Ex): A ranger can improve the initial attitude of an animal. This ability functions just like a Diplomacy check to improve the attitude of a person (see Using Skills). The ranger rolls 1d20 and adds his ranger level and his Charisma bonus to determine the wild empathy check result. The typical domestic animal has a starting attitude of indifferent, while wild animals are usually unfriendly.
So no, he can't do that. This is something that is the purview of druids and rangers.
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Handle Animal doesn't let you convince an animal not to attack.
You're sorcerer is trying to use Handle Animal as though it were Wild Empathy.
Wild Empathy (Ex): A ranger can improve the initial attitude of an animal. This ability functions just like a Diplomacy check to improve the attitude of a person (see Using Skills). The ranger rolls 1d20 and adds his ranger level and his Charisma bonus to determine the wild empathy check result. The typical domestic animal has a starting attitude of indifferent, while wild animals are usually unfriendly.So no, he can't do that. This is something that is the purview of druids and rangers.
Wild Empathy is for improving mood, a creature with an improved mood will help you. "Pushing" an animal, as written, does not specify a domestic animal, nor does it specify the circumstances under which you can use it.
“Push” an Animal: To push an animal means to get it to perform a task or trick that it doesn't know but is physically capable of performing. This category also covers making an animal perform a forced march or forcing it to hustle for more than 1 hour between sleep cycles. If the animal is wounded or has taken any nonlethal damage or ability score damage, the DC increases by 2. If your check succeeds, the animal performs the task or trick on its next action.
Nothing in there, or the rest of the Handle Animal entry, say anything about what kind of animal it does or does not work on.
I agree with you, sort of, in that I wouldn't allow it, but RAW is not as cut and dry as you seem to think.
You push an animal to perform tricks. Don't attack me is not a trick.
As well, you yourself noted that an animal should need to be indifferent to actually use handle animal on.
Wild Empathy is what you use to make an animal indifferent, instead of unfriendly, or in this case hostile.
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It's not clear, but I do think it's intended that Handle Animal only works on domestic animals (unless you rear them).
To rear an animal means to raise a wild creature from infancy so that it becomes domesticated. A handler can rear as many as three creatures of the same kind at once. A successfully domesticated animal can be taught tricks at the same time it’s being raised, or it can be taught as a domesticated animal later.
This implies that you can't teach tricks to a wild animal (you have to domesticate it) and if you can't teach tricks to a wild animal you shouldn't be able to get them to perform a trick.
Untrained If you have no ranks in Handle Animal, you can use a Charisma check to handle and push domestic animals, but you can’t teach, rear, or train animals. A druid or ranger with no ranks in Handle Animal can use a Charisma check to handle and push her animal companion, but she can’t teach, rear, or train other non-domestic animals.
While this doesn't rule out the idea that a trained person could use Handle Animal to push a wild creature, the comparison being drawn is between handle/push (untrained) and teach/rear/train (trained), not domestic and wild, suggesting that push is generally used on domestic creatures by trained as well as untrained persons.
Now, my group does sometimes use Handle Animal as if it were Wild Empathy, but even Wild Empathy probably couldn't halt an animal that immediately intends to eat your face - you need a minute of interaction, just like Diplomacy.
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You push an animal to perform tricks. Don't attack me is not a trick.
Actually, it is a trick.
Down (DC 15): The animal breaks off from combat or otherwise backs down.
And even if it weren't, the text of "Push" specifies trick OR task that it is "physically capable of performing."
As well, you yourself noted that an animal should need to be indifferent to actually use handle animal on.
Wild Empathy is what you use to make an animal indifferent, instead of unfriendly, or in this case hostile.
Which is why I said I wouldn't allow it in this case (or would ignore results, which is effectively the same thing)
I like intimidate too. I'd just like to chip in that just because a creature is hostile attitude doesn't mean it will attack on sight. Although in the case of dire lions, well they're used to begin top predator and all so maybe they would attack instantly.
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So the intimidation suggestion is interesting because this feat exists:
Greater Wild Empathy
Your natural empathy stretches across the world of nature.
Prerequisites: Knowledge (nature) 5 ranks, wild empathy class feature.
Benefit: You gain a +2 insight bonus on wild empathy checks, and you may use wild empathy to duplicate an Intimidate check rather than a Diplomacy check. In addition, choose one of the following kinds of creatures: elementals, fey, lycanthropes, plants, or vermin. You may influence creatures of that type with wild empathy, if their Intelligence score is 1 or 2, or they do not possess an Intelligence score. Once you choose the type of creature, it cannot be changed.
Special: You may select this feat more than once. Each time, you may choose an additional creature type to influence.
So again, you can't use intimidate on a animal without Wild Empathy and this feat.
As to the other discussion of whether a hostile animal attacks or not. Absolutely they attack. What you're describing about animals not attacking means that they are not hostile. What you're describing are indifferent animals. Animals are not automatically hostile.
As for the down trick you left out a big important part of it:
Down (DC 15): The animal breaks off from combat or otherwise backs down. An animal that doesn't know this trick continues to fight until it must flee (due to injury, a fear effect, or the like) or its opponent is defeated.
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Do the Dire Lions know the Down trick?
No, but they don't need to if you're using "Push"
As for the down trick you left out a big important part of it:
Down (DC 15): The animal breaks off from combat or otherwise backs down. An animal that doesn't know this trick continues to fight until it must flee (due to injury, a fear effect, or the like) or its opponent is defeated.
That is if you're not using "Push"
“Push” an Animal: To push an animal means to get it to perform a task or trick that it doesn't know but is physically capable of performing.
The description of "Down" is letting you know that if your animal isn't trained to perform the trick, you'll have to push it to make it stop.
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OP,
Another homebrew solution I thought of is to let the character without Wild Empathy use Handle Animal to emulate Wild Empathy for a single round duration.
Basically, if the PC wants to trick the Dire Lions into not attacking, he has to actively and continuously interact ("Push") them, and the minute he ceases (or fails) they become hostile again (and lunge!). Give him a +2 circumstance if he throws them some meat.
If you wanted, you could also increase the DC by +1 each round after a number of rounds equal to his Charisma score (or ranks in Handle) has passed, or somesuch interval.
This has the benefit of rewarding his character choices without totally circumventing the Wild Empathy ability, and creates some interesting roleplaying opportunities.
That is a great point. It's a full round action to use handle animal on a single creature, since there are multiple lions it's not going to work well.
So the intimidation suggestion is interesting because this feat exists:
So again, you can't use intimidate on a animal without Wild Empathy and this feat.Greater Wild Empathy
Your natural empathy stretches across the world of nature.
Prerequisites: Knowledge (nature) 5 ranks, wild empathy class feature.
Benefit: You gain a +2 insight bonus on wild empathy checks, and you may use wild empathy to duplicate an Intimidate check rather than a Diplomacy check. In addition, choose one of the following kinds of creatures: elementals, fey, lycanthropes, plants, or vermin. You may influence creatures of that type with wild empathy, if their Intelligence score is 1 or 2, or they do not possess an Intelligence score. Once you choose the type of creature, it cannot be changed.
Special: You may select this feat more than once. Each time, you may choose an additional creature type to influence.
Doesn't follow. All it says is that you can't use wild empathy to substitute for Intimidate without that feat.
If I created a feat that said "You gain a +2 untyped bonus on wild empathy checks, and you may use wild empathy to craft magic items instead of Spellcraft," would you interpret that as saying that you can't craft magic items, or that you can't use Spellcraft to make magic items?
The text of Intimidate makes no suggestion that it's limited by creature type.
The one thing you are not considering is the exclusive trick, which makes animals immune to this kind off a thing. If there is a trick to prevent it, then it is possible.
This is my take on it, how I would run it in my game: I do not think it would work on wild animals. An animal needs to know tricks to be able to be commanded. Nor would I allow it for Animal companions and familiars. These are assumed to be exclusive.
For domesticated animals, it's a Push, but the command would have to be one an animal knows or can understand so it can respond in an appropriate manner. This where Speak with Animals comes in as it allows a character to give commands in a way that an animal can understand.
I do not think that the animals attitude should matter much, it is responding to training, a right command generates a particular response which overwrites natural impulses. That is what training is all about.
Remember Handle animal is a Move action and a DC 10 check, Pushing is much, much harder.
I'd say it would be a "bluff" check.
RAWAR!!!
I'M BIG AND SCARY LOOK AT ME! I'm VERY BAD PREY. I will be too much bother to hunt, go hunt something else.It's a common tactic in nature and why many animals puff up.
Disguise:
Get on eachother's shoulders, and put a cloak over yourselfs. Now it thinks you are a huge mutant. I am sure there are some human centipedes somewhere innthe bestiary- it is believable.