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Consolidated skills. What about Consolidated stats ?
Maybe four stats instead of six ? Maybe drop con somehow ?
How would you do it ?
I vote for consolidated threads. We don't need four of these. ;)
On topic though: The problem is that pushing together something so fundamental to your build as ability scores will easily be favoring some classes over others.
Let's for example say we consolidate it to
Power: Strength, Constitution
Quickness: Dexterity, Intelligence
Personality: Wisdom, Charisma
Now a fighter needs only care about one stat, but a monk has to deal with all of them.
Another logical configuration could be
Physical: Strength, Dexterity
Mental: Intelligence, Charisma
Endurance: Wisdom, Constitution
This one would work a little better in regards to masness. it would make most classes dependent on two or three of these. With even monks actually ending up in the 2 stat crowd.
There might be some problems in this model, since dexterity builds are now automatically also strength builds. Generally this system will probably go to favor martials which isnt a bad thing.
I vote for consolidated threads. We don't need four of these. ;)
On topic though: The problem is that pushing together something so fundamental to your build as ability scores will easily be favoring some classes over others.
Let's for example say we consolidate it to
Power: Strength, Constitution
Quickness: Dexterity, Intelligence
Personality: Wisdom, CharismaNow a fighter needs only care about one stat, but a monk has to deal with all of them.
Another logical configuration could be
Physical: Strength, Dexterity
Mental: Intelligence, Charisma
Endurance: Wisdom, ConstitutionThis one would work a little better in regards to masness. it would make most classes dependent on two or three of these. With even monks actually ending up in the 2 stat crowd.
There might be some problems in this model, since dexterity builds are now automatically also strength builds. Generally this system will probably go to favor martials which isnt a bad thing.
Argh I know, my phone likes to muiltpress buttons, sorry all.
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The question is...why?
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Well, this is frustrating. I wrote a post about how I'd do it and it seems to have up and vanished into the ether. >=/
Anyway. If it were up to me, here's how I'd do it:
You now have three stats. We'll call them, for want of better terms, Physical, Mental, and Social.
Physical would cover all attack rolls, melee/thrown damage rolls, maximum HP, carrying capacity, Armor Class (lost when flat-footed), and skills like climbing, jumping, not getting sick ever, and eating fifty pork roll sandwiches in an hour without throwing up.
Mental would cover your general magic-itude: spell save DC, bonus spell slots, saves versus magic, and stuff like logical thought, appraisal and identifying magical items, and knowing just which card to play during a hand of seven-card Napoleon. (Which is a very legit interesting game, look it up!)
Social would cover things like bluffing your opponents, intimidating them into backing down during combat, convincing the tavern drunk to buy you a drink, trying to get the half-elf rogue into bed with you, and convincing her half-orc fighter boyfriend to not tear out your liver.
Skills, of course, would have to be condensed as well. But so it goes.
The question is...why?
Because some of us enjoy gamecrafting, some of us think quality-of-life improvements might add something to the game, a select few are spitballing ideas for projects of their own. The possibilities are ENDLESS~
You now have three stats. We'll call them, for want of better terms, Physical, Mental, and Social.
That's what Big Eyes, Small Mouth did. And to cover the fact that each of those stats covers multiple attributes, they had traits that could affect part of a stat. To pathfinderize it would probably be feats that would, for example, give you +x to Dexterity-based attacks and checks.
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Yeah, they called it Body, Mind, and Soul, but Body and Soul both affected your max Health, and Mind and Soul both affected your max Mind Points (which you blew through in 2e like Tony Montana and that mountain of cocaine from the end of Scarface.) (Incidentally, Soul was no more expensive to buy in BESM than Body or Mind were, even though Soul is clearly much better than Body and Mind.)
I was leaning more towards Firefly RPG and/or the World of Darkness's three stat categories =p
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The question is...why?Because some of us enjoy gamecrafting, some of us think quality-of-life improvements might add something to the game, a select few are spitballing ideas for projects of their own. The possibilities are ENDLESS~
I'm a game designer. Design goals are vital to creating quality work. Otherwise, you're creating solutions looking for a problem.
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I had considered this myself for awhile but eventually ditched it as it opened up its own slew of issues. The way I was looking at it was that str and constitution (called physique in my initial writeup) would be merged into a single stat and cha and wisdom would likewise be merged the same way. Could it work? Maybe, but it was more work than my initial estimation and didn't do as much to help as I had been hoping. Found some other ways to improve martial sorts enough in my own games.
My own reason for considering it was making martial types a bit less dependent on so many abilities while giving a slight boost to str/con types by tying those two stats together. So there is definitely a reason why to consider it. Cha and wis was an afterthought that didn't make much of a difference frankly.
Definitely does hold some potential if it could be done in a relatively simple, intuitive way. I couldn't figure it out though.
I don't mean to stifle creativity or anything. Guided creativity just produces more quality work.
I will say that I did implement a four ability score scheme for an RPG project. At first, I used six ability scores. However, it did not make much sense in the game setting for Constitution to exist. CON also was the only ability score that was entirely passive. As a result, I removed it. I also combined Wisdom with Charisma because my game makes Perception an innate skill (like initiative). I also wanted an equal number of mental and physical ability scores. The end result was the following:
This exists within the following context:
As you can see, the whole game builds around the four ability scores. It's difficult to do the same with Pathfinder because you're changing a very fundamental aspect of the game.
Thanks all ! This community is the best.
I guess what I'm trying make is some kind of character creation filter with simple stats and skills that could later be turned into a full pathfinder character sheet. Basically I want to make pathfinder more exesable for the new person.
Thanks all ! This community is the best.
I guess what I'm trying make is some kind of character creation filter with simple stats and skills that could later be turned into a full pathfinder character sheet. Basically I want to make pathfinder more exesable for the new person.
Using Beginner Box can help. Or you could follow the Five Moons RPG, a more rules lite game made by the guy who created the Beginner Box. I have the opinion that ability scores aren't the problem with Pathfinder's complexity.
I honestly would go with 4 as well, with strength governing health and carrying capacity, while dexterity gave AC and initiative. both could be used for offense to-hit and to-damage.
mental would be Charisma and Wisdom, Intelligence does two things, knowledge skills and wizard casting, just throw knowledge to wisdom and casting to charisma.
I would probably rename them to Physical Power, physical Agility, mental power(charisma) and mental agility(wisdom), then just refer to them as PA PP MA and MP.
Instead of consolidating stats, perhaps revise/expand or redistribute what each stat incorporates. Instead of looking to change the stats consider the classes that depend on the stats.
Reduce MAD for some classes and get rid of SAD for others.
If i could i'd probably make every class MAD in some way.
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The problem is that there just aren't enough things to distribute on the mental stats.
There is six stats and three saves... why not require each stat to be the total of two modifiers? There are a couple of potential ideas, though the ones I would go with are below. I did Wisdom with the Reflex save because of the stat's connection with perception and senses, while having Intelligence with the Will save.
Reflex = Wis + Dex modifers (or Int + Dex)
Toughness = Str + Con modifers
Will = Int + Cha modifers (or Wis + Cha)
Honestly I would switch Wisdom with Intelligence for your new base Ability scores for saves, Int just doesn't make sense for will... But it does for Reflex... At least a little...
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Honestly I would switch Wisdom with Intelligence for your new base Ability scores for saves, Int just doesn't make sense for will... But it does for Reflex... At least a little...
I added that as an alternative choice.
You misunderstand me, the above is not my 'new base ability scores' but a changes in how saves are decided. I very feel that all six stats should be kept, not consolidated.
4 Stats... G.U.R.P.S.?
Fear the Boots - Monostat system... Just 1 stat ;-)
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Fear the Boots - Monostat system... Just 1 stat ;-)
Monostat, Monoskill, Monofeat, Monospell, Monogear.
I need to outdo myself...
MonoRace, MonoGender, MonoStat, MonoSkill, MonoFeat, MonoSpell, MonoGear, MonoLanguage, MonoBuilt, MonoPlayer.
I need to outdo myself...
MonoRace, MonoGender, MonoStat, MonoSkill, MonoFeat, MonoSpell, MonoGear, MonoLanguage, MonoBuilt, MonoPlayer.
I can do better:
1
congratulations the campaign is completed!
Instead of consolidating the stats, how about make them disappear unless you have an unusual value in them? Mutants & Masterminds 3rd Edition and some other system do this. Get rid of the ability scores and just put down the modifiers. Might even be good to have the modifiers for Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution be automatically size-adjusted by default (as per the resizing rules for Polymorphing spells and as already done for carrying capacity, but comb through to weed out inconsistencies before setting the defaults), although then you have to make clear (probably repeatedly) that a Halfling has to have a really hefty positive Strength modifier to be able to hold even when arm-wrestling an Ogre with a +0 Strength modifier. Ability score modifiers that are +0 just don't show up by default, thereby on the average reducing clutter even if you had more than 6.
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Reflex = Wis + Dex modifers (or Int + Dex)
Toughness = Str + Con modifers
Will = Int + Cha modifers (or Wis + Cha)
Honestly, Wis makes sense for all of them.
Refl: Wis to see/sense it coming and Dex to physically react fast
Toughness: Con for physical toughness and Wis to mind-over-matter ignore it and overcome when the body doesn't want to.
Will: Wis (obvious) and ??? Wis x2.
Int, nah, Cha, why?, Str, uhuh. Dex, nope. Con. maayyybbeee. If you look at it a certain way.
Reflex = Wis + Dex modifers (or Int + Dex)
Toughness = Str + Con modifers
Will = Int + Cha modifers (or Wis + Cha)Honestly, Wis makes sense for all of them.
Refl: Wis to see/sense it coming and Dex to physically react fast
Toughness: Con for physical toughness and Wis to mind-over-matter ignore it and overcome when the body doesn't want to.
Will: Wis (obvious) and ??? Wis x2.
Int, nah, Cha, why?, Str, uhuh. Dex, nope. Con. maayyybbeee. If you look at it a certain way.
Cha if positive? Considering Cha is "the force of personality" (or lack thereof).
The problem is that there just aren't enough things to distribute on the mental stats.There is six stats and three saves... why not require each stat to be the total of two modifiers? There are a couple of potential ideas, though the ones I would go with are below. I did Wisdom with the Reflex save because of the stat's connection with perception and senses, while having Intelligence with the Will save.
Reflex = Wis + Dex modifers (or Int + Dex)
Toughness = Str + Con modifers
Will = Int + Cha modifers (or Wis + Cha)
DND 4th did something similar, except it was the best of the two. Fort 'defence' was best of Str or Con, Reflex was Int or Dex, and Will was Wis or Cha. Does make sense on a level -- in a way both stats can be seen as contributing to whatever you're doing.