Order of the Amber Die
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So Vreva has actually been one of the "good guys" all along? Get out.
Her cover identity is indeed perfect for operating in the belly of the beast in the slaver world. Clearly, she's even braver - and more skilled - than she was in the last novel, because now she's actually sleeping with the enemy, and one with a special ability to detect lies, no less. She's certainly been clever enough to phrase her words so she doesn't have to lie, but eventually she may have no other choice and have to make a saving throw, or fail one...
I have so much to say about this book but I'll wait till people have finished as I don't want to inadvertently spoil anything in my excitement.
I will say while I liked Vreva in the first book she became one of my all time favorite character in fiction with this book.
Oh...what do people think about her familiar Saffron?
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Order of the Amber Die
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Oh...what do people think about her familiar Saffron?
Saffron is hilarious. I can easily picture a cat acting exactly like him in every situation he's been in so far, and that he looks just like one of the archetypal evil villain cats makes him even better, complete with sinister sneer and heinous hissing. We don't get to see familiars or animal companions enough in Tales novels, and I think the empathic link is conveyed really well in this one. I'm looking forward to Vreva do something really nasty with the share spells ability through him.
Where are you guys in the book? I'd like to catch up.
Usually we read the first 8 chapters in a week...and than discuss it on Sat/Sun.
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Order of the Amber Die
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I like the dichotomy between Celeste and Astrus, how one thinks the way the other treats people is cruel or absurd, respectively. I think both of then maintain their CN alignments, with Celeste clearly leaning towards good and Astrus towards evil, and are products of their environment. In captivity, Celeste has seen the horror humans are capable of, but as a Stargazer she has seen their virtues – both of which has manifested in her ability for compassion. In contrast, Astrus views humans more traditionally as far as lunar nagas go, and since he was not abused like Celeste was, he cannot help but treat them the way that he does. To this end, it seems that an altercation between the two is inevitable and I wonder how Celeste will react if/when Astrus sends his thralls against her or the the Stargazers. Will she slay his allies? Or will she show them mercy since she knows exactly how and to what extent they are being manipulted, and cannot be held responsible for their actions any more than Torius could be held for his during his addiction.
I also like the interplay between Celeste and Astrus...but I also see it as Celeste looking into a dark mirror about herself. Pretty much she really distrusts and hates humans...sure she loves Torius and trust/likes most of the crew of Stargazer, but outside of that. Remember she really does not see the horror in what Astrus is doing.
I think she will grow as a character due to their interaction.
I was very excited to see Celeste and Astrus encounter each other. Part of it, imo, is leftover from the first book and fulfilled an idle flight of fancy I had when reading that one - mostly regarding Torius's antipathy towards turning into a naga himself, while always making Celeste turn into a human. What would happen if she were to encounter a male of her species that she was actually attracted to? How would Torius react - and more amusingly, what would he do to try and win Celeste back from competition like that?
Granted it had a little bit more of a comeuppance role there. Here, seeing it actually play out in a character arc has a lot of cool value; I really like the point about them both being CN, but having different morals that led them there. More importantly, John Kretzer's point about Celeste not really caring that Astrus has enslaved a number of humans says a lot about her mindset without stating things directly; she really doesn't care about people outside her immediate circle of Stargazers. While yes she's got enough self-awareness to frown at the thought of keeping slaves, she really doesn't feel the need to interfere or free them herself.
I actually wondered what would have happened if Celeste had ended on a more positive note with Astrus and had invited him to come along on the ship/at least part of the adventure; in essence she would act as an ambassador for humans to the naga race and could really end up having a significant long-term imapct. Not saying that it would be easy or that it "should" have happened that way, just that it was an idle thought that I pondered while reading about her interactions with him.
Also, I am utterly in love with Vera. I actually thought that her cat HAD to be a familiar ('cause it was remarked upon so often) in the first book, but I was gonna put money down on her being a magical rogue (with the magical adept rogue talents) or perhaps a weird bard rather than a straight-up sorcerer. That really surprised me! Did anyone else have other classes they suspected or attributed to her instead of the sorcerer or did that seem the number one choice (and if so, what gave it away)?
In regards to Vreva...I thought of her in Pirate's Honor probably as a rogue...or even a Expert. So I was surprised by the fact that she is a sorceress.
But yes I completely fell in love with Vreva and Zarina.
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Also, I am utterly in love with Vera. I actually thought that her cat HAD to be a familiar ('cause it was remarked upon so often) in the first book, but I was gonna put money down on her being a magical rogue (with the magical adept rogue talents) or perhaps a weird bard rather than a straight-up sorcerer. That really surprised me!...
You were very clever to pick that up, and you were actually right. Vreva has a few levels of "poisoner" as a rogue. This helps her with drugging slavers, and a little stealth... Well done!
Loving the commentary, by the way... This brings so much to light that I had never thought of...
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I actually thought that her cat HAD to be a familiar ('cause it was remarked upon so often) in the first book, but I was gonna put money down on her being a magical rogue (with the magical adept rogue talents) or perhaps a weird bard rather than a straight-up sorcerer. That really surprised me!...
I had a few guesses, and I should've realized she was a rogue (poisoner) considering she has point stashed EVERYWHERE but I went somewhere else entirely, haha. In Pirate's Honor I thought she might have been a vishkanya with the deadly courtesan archetype, but if she had been that would likely have been revealed early on so that was out. Then after meeting Saffron for the first time I thought she was a wizard specialized in the enchantment school with the manipulator focused arcane school, but we never saw her use any spellbooks or prepare spells in any other way so that was out too. But in Pirate's Promise it's much more clear that she is exactly as you guessed, definitely good call. Thank you Chris for verifying that!
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For Vreva's part of the story - I thought Vreva was brave for surrounding herself with her enemies in Okeno, but getting Torius to do the same in Andoren was just as bold, on both their parts. I found myself cringing at times when she was with Zarina. I have this dubious feeling about her, that maybe she knows exactly what Vreva is up to and is just going along with it so see how deep of a grave Vreva can dig herself into.
For Torius's part of the story – I was wondering when we were going to see some more naval combat! That was the best use of a disintegrate spell that I’ve ever seen, taking out an entire crew with one shot. It was a nice gamble on the part of the slaver wizard, as the [i=]Gold Wing[/i] had to fail a decent saving throw for that to work, as 5d6 would do very little to the 1,620 hit points a galleon normally has, and Torius was lucky he wasn’t as imposing a target because that could’ve easily been the [i=]Stargazer[/i] that went down like that.
For Celeste's part of the story – I think Eutep is a spy. Surely Celeste must suspect that Astrus has sent him to keep an eye on her, maybe even attempt to assassinate her at some point when she is far enough away from him to retaliate in case the attempt fails. Or I could be totally wrong, and Eutep is actually escaping from Astrus, trying to rid himself of his addiction like Torius. Maybe he'll even help Celeste take on Astrus if it comes to that, I just don't know...
So how far are people into this book?
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Order of the Amber Die
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So how far are people into this book?
We've been reading a third of at a time for the past few novels, so we'll be finishing up from Chapter Nineteen to Twenty Seven for this weekend.
This would also be a good point to vote for the next novel over the next few days, preferably something with an ePub before the novel to give us extra time to get it before assigning readings.
Looking back, there were some votes for The Worldwound Gambit, and also Winter Witch, although it's unfortunately no longer in season as it was before. Then there's the Dave Gross collection that just had a fifth novel release this month, however we would have to read four novels and I believe just as many ePubs before getting to Lord of Runes, which is quite an undertaking that - if we read them all consecutively - would likely take the book club to the end of the year, but I'd gladly to go on such an epic series of adventures with you all.
But to be honest, as I'm currently GMing the Iron Gods AP I'd like to vote for City of the Fallen Sky and Reign of Stars by Tim Pratt as our next back-to-back novels, as I've really enjoyed the last two pairs from Liane and Chris. So let's open up the voting, and I hope the other participants from our earlier novels have continued to follow these threads at least every once in awhile and can jump back in with us!
I would vote for the Pratt books. Both are a lot of fun.
I'll second that.
I typically can read one of these Tales books in just one or two sittings. I know not everyone else does that though so I try to go by Darkborn's pace. That said, I am super eager to get to talking about all parts of the book more freely!
I'm also fine with anything suggested. I enjoy reading PFTales in general.
One of the things I wanted to return to but didn't have the time to really get into it from the old thread was something I had only just touched on with discussing some aspects of the book (prompted by John Kretzer's post).
@xeose4: About Torius...I get why he would developed those issues. I mean he had a very rough childhood(which is probably putting it mildly) so I expect there would be some transference of his anger with his mother with people that reminds him of her. What did not seem right about it is the fact that he did not to this to people who also should remind him of his mother...like a pesh user.
As to people's reaction to it...I think he kept most of it internal...except for when it seemed comes to Vreva...which Celeste did not like her because of jealousy issues.
Also I think Vreva teasing of him was in part in reaction to his disdain for her.
Yeah I'm not disagreeing with any of this, and it may be 100% of what's there and I just read it differently (or wrong, hah). I agree very much that Celeste is jealous and the responses they had individually were apt, but it didn't seem to come across as "I hate Vreva so I will agree with this" so much as "She's a sex-worker and as such she's evil". Both of those, to me are also perfectly normal and illustrate jealousy, but it's more that when Vreva is confronted about it and told the truth she accommodates Torius's (wrong) beliefs - like, it's not the other way around, where he learns that she's not his mother, or that she's a normal person, or that she's a woman who is successfully taking advantage of slave traders. Instead, when Vreva fell silent, it seemed like it was her being sort of like a tacit acceptance of Torius's views being right. More importantly, in this book we actually find out she's a Callistrean, a very sex-positive religion, particularly when entwining it with revenge.
Her follow-up retreat from being sexual with Torius to acting completely differently felt like it was less "her trying to better manipulate him" (something she was already successful at?) and more her trying to almost... I dunno, pander to his views? I dunno, I'm not saying it's like a big social justice issue or that it ruined the book for me by any means; it's more like there was just this moment where it felt like there was something incongruent with this character (between her personality and her actions) and because I absolutely adore her it sort of sticks out to me.
The reason I wanted to keep talking about it was because it sort of ties into my surprise (like Darkborn's) at her actually being an extremely well-trained, extremely successful field-agent for the Black Talons. Now, I want to be clear that this is just speculation that entered my mind when I read the book and doesn't have any bearing on whether I think it's a good book or not; it's just imo good fuel for discussion in terms of how the book was constructed and I'm curious what other people's thoughts are on this.
For me personally, it was very different than what I had first thought of Vreva based on what she presented as in the first book; an ambitious, extremely skilled, self-made courtesan who climbed to the top of the pile through a doubtlessly dangerous and scary and appropriately traumatic childhood that left her with an iron will and a spine of absolute steel. This revelation/development... doesn't necessarily change that for me, but it meant restructuring how I viewed her in my head - and particularly in how I viewed her with regards to other characters in the book. Like, this makes her hardcore CG, and far more heroic, noble, self-sacrificing, and "hero material" than the CN Torius (imo of course, I understand if others feel differently). Like, to me, she's sacrificing basically almost everything in order to actually help people - and more, she's willing to go to absolutely amazing lengths to do so. Comparatively, Torius is mainly a pirate - he is loyal to his crew, avoids unnecessary bloodshed, and really isn't at all close to CE in any way, but it's hard to see him as CG. Celeste we've talked about above, and her alignment also totally makes sense.
What I am wondering is, did anybody else have a reaction to the shift from reading about CN characters (that really just try not to be too evil) to a CG character that's going above and beyond the call of duty? Again, I'm not necessarily saying it felt out of place, it was just a real surprise that took me aback. I was left wondering why and how the decision to make Vreva be a member of the Black Talons came about, and how the story would/would not be different had that piece either never been revealed or else not existed. Also, I had the idle thought of "was this done to 'redeem' her in some way? and if so, did she need redeeming? would people have been as interested in her if she was just as CN as Torius and Celeste?"
Like I said though, I don't know if any of this is at all interesting discussion to anyone else and I have no firm opinions on anything. And I may have read everything wrong! I just am always so fascinated by the writing process and what does and does not go into the mix. If anyone has their own opinion or another perspective I'd really love to hear it. 90% of this was just idle speculation when I thought about the book, nothing more.
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I don't want to spoil anything till people get to the end of the novel. So I'll reply to this more in full on Sat/Sun.
But I'll say one thing I had a feeling that Vreva was more than just a CN courtesan from the first book. Not exactly what per se.
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Just want to say that this is a really good analysis of characterization, xeose4. I'll hold off until the discussion is finished to put my two cents in, but you open up a lot of things I didn't really think of, and some that I did, and I'm happy about.
Keep one thing in mind: Vreva was a spy in Pirate's Honor, too. Spies only show you the person they want you to see...
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Okay everyone, we're done so fire at will!
By Besmara's Bones did Torius get caught hard by Zarina...a blood biography spell...very nice. Then she did the same to Vreva after entrapping her with her discern lies ability, which was quite well maneuvered on her part, but I then I lost a lot of respect for her after what she did to poor Saffron. Although I empathize with her being equally played by Vreva, I still don't think that was as harsh as executing her familiar. Hardly any of what Vreva told her were actually lies, and apparently she even loved her too, so the only real injury to Zarina was her pride - and perhaps her reputation as an inquisitor - but that seemed to matter to her as much. Their final moment together was cathartic in so many ways and I'm glad Zarina came to her rescue, but I don't really believe that she perished and despite all she did I still hope to see her again in the next novel. Actually, I would like to see Astrus again too. I was wrong about Eutep being his spy, and that he and Celeste would eventually fight each other, but maybe the latter in the works and we'll find out when Pirate's Prophecy is released early next year...
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All right...now I can speak.
I really liked how all the characters developed in this book.
Torius: I liked the fact that he and crew are going to be active in the fight vs the slavers. It presents a lot of interesting possibilities for future stories. Also it was something that makes sense.
I was hoping for a little growth on him from his views on prostitutes. I mean sure he got closer to Vreva...but that is because she stopped being a prostitute to him and became a anti-slave spy. While it was cut way back in this novel I still get the feeling that he does not view prostitutes as people either...just stand ins for his mother. Nothing really challenged his views. I kinda of liked to see something along these lines in the future.
Celeste: I really liked what was done with her. As I mentioned earlier I liked how she grew in this novel. With her interactions with Astrus holding up a dark view mirror to her and making her actually care about people beyond her circle. Was all greatly handled.
Someone up thread mentioned that her and Torius alignment were CN...which I can see but with developments for both characters I am wondering if they are headed towards CG...
Vreva: She became one of my all time favorite characters. What we learned of her past and what she is and what she does...and goes through in this novel...I just fell in love with her. It also explains why she helped them out in Pirate's Honor....sure probably keep her cover ID but also because I do think she felt guilty. It also explains why she stopped flirting with Torius. Given what happened to her sister I think she felt more sorry for Torius and changed her view of his disdain for her. Before she probably thought he was just some prude...so it was fun for her to tweak his nose...but when she learned that he suffered from what her sister went through she understood his disdain for her better. And felt for him.
Also her relationship with Zarina is one of the best relationship I read about in a book in a long time. I loved that in the confrontation love won out...it brought tears to my eyes when I read it. I also hope that Zarina survived and we can continue to see the relationship continue to grow. (I even started a thread about this in this sub-forum where I go to greater lengths about this).
Zarina: She made me want to play a Inquisitor. I will touch upon something Darkborn said. I think Zarina reacted with so much hate by killing Saffron was more to sense of betrayal she felt. While it is true she knew Vreva fell in love with her...Vreva was using her...and was lying to her. She had only loved somebody else once before this and that ended because her love could not see beyond her choosen profession. Similarly Vreva at that time choose her own goals over her love of Zarina by trying to kill herself.
It was why I think at the end Zarina grew the most...not only did she realize how the evil of slavery undermined the law...but realize that she had to choose love.
Anyway I for one can't wait till Feb.
So...any body else got any thoughts?
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Torius: I liked the fact that he and crew are going to be active in the fight vs the slavers. It presents a lot of interesting possibilities for future stories. Also it was something that makes sense.
Are yellow sails commonly used by slavers - like the black flag for pirates - because I’ve seen that several times in different settings, like the Slave Pits of the Undercity module (as well as the following three in the series) or was that homage? Or coincidence?
I was hoping for a little growth on him from his views on prostitutes. I mean sure he got closer to Vreva...but that is because she stopped being a prostitute to him and became a anti-slave spy. While it was cut way back in this novel I still get the feeling that he does not view prostitutes as people either...just stand ins for his mother. Nothing really challenged his views. I kinda of liked to see something along these lines in the future.
Vreva wasn’t truly a prostitute though, at least not in the traditional sense. It may be the “oldest profession” but to her it was the means to an end, not simply a source of income.
Celeste: I really liked what was done with her. As I mentioned earlier I liked how she grew in this novel. With her interactions with Astrus holding up a dark view mirror to her and making her actually care about people beyond her circle. Was all greatly handled.
She has developed in leaps and bounds in each novel, and I’m curious to see where she goes next. I appreciate the fact that while Torius and Celeste had the spotlight in the first story, they shared it with Vreva and Zarina. All of their stories were well-balanced, which, given their depth, was no small task.
Someone up thread mentioned that her and Torius alignment were CN...which I can see but with developments for both characters I am wondering if they are headed towards CG...
I think they both fit the description of the CG alignment in the CRB:
“Chaotic Good combines a good heart and a free spirit.”You could put Vreva in there too now that we really got to know her. Actually, the rest of the senior staff of the Stargazer seems to be headed in that direction as well – Snick, Thillion, perhaps even Grogul…
Vreva: She became one of my all time favorite characters. What we learned of her past and what she is and what she does...and goes through in this novel...I just fell in love with her. It also explains why she helped them out in Pirate's Honor....sure probably keep her cover ID but also because I do think she felt guilty. It also explains why she stopped flirting with Torius. Given what happened to her sister I think she felt more sorry for Torius and changed her view of his disdain for her. Before she probably thought he was just some prude...so it was fun for her to tweak his nose...but when she learned that he suffered from what her sister went through she understood his disdain for her better. And felt for him.
So true! Vreva being able to identify with Torius in that regard is what enabled her to convert the way he viewed her. Going from a person who plays perpetual mind games to someone so genuine to the point vulnerability was such a monumental shift for her, but it was worth the risk because showing Torius that she was the antithesis of what he thought about her all this time was exactly what she needed to do to win him over. Anything less would have allowed him some doubt of her sincerity, and that would have likely got both of them killed in the end.
I pegged Celeste and Torius as CN because of their more self-oriented natures; Celeste because if she was CG (like an lillend, dryad, or unicorn) she'd have free'd all of Astrus's thralls at the end when she had the opportunity. If nothing else, since everyone knew she was a naga, she could have at least offered them their drug fix until they got back to the city. She didn't, however - she just took the one who acted on his own to join her. Imo that "good" piece specifically means that she tries to DO good, not just that she frowns at bad practices. Torius I could see trending a bit more towards the CG side of CN definitely, but he, too, doesn't seem to be actively trying to do "good" versus just being not that bad of a guy. Yeah he hates slavery, but you could have an LE person also hate and combat slavery, which doesn't make them good either. What strikes you as elevating Torius to being "good" (in the capital G sense of the word) instead of a guy who's just morally not evil?
I pegged Celeste and Torius as CN because of their more self-oriented natures; Celeste because if she was CG (like an lillend, dryad, or unicorn) she'd have free'd all of Astrus's thralls at the end when she had the opportunity. If nothing else, since everyone knew she was a naga, she could have at least offered them their drug fix until they got back to the city. She didn't, however - she just took the one who acted on his own to join her. Imo that "good" piece specifically means that she tries to DO good, not just that she frowns at bad practices. Torius I could see trending a bit more towards the CG side of CN definitely, but he, too, doesn't seem to be actively trying to do "good" versus just being not that bad of a guy. Yeah he hates slavery, but you could have an LE person also hate and combat slavery, which doesn't make them good either. What strikes you as elevating Torius to being "good" (in the capital G sense of the word) instead of a guy who's just morally not evil?
Well the fact that when given the chance to be actively combat slavery he jumped at it. Even with the great risk of loosing his crew. Also I did not say he was there yet...but it is a step in the 'right' direction.
Haha yeah, sorry that was more because Darkborn said he felt that Torius was CG and I was wondering what was the reasoning. I agree 100% that he's on the path perhaps but not there yet fo sho.
If you're gonna respond to some thread comments, Mr. Jackson, can you also answer: were you hungry the whole time you wrote this book? because I was hungry the whole time reading it. yeah there was some crazy fare when the Stargazers were feeding the wealthy merchant previously, but damn Vreva is a certified GOURMAND. I cannot believe that she doesn't have a weight loss spell (or else need to eat a ton to fuel her spellpower) because haha every time Zarine showed up Vreva had like, a SIX COURSE MEAL laid out! lawlz I love Vrava so much. I can totally picture the stargazer crew rallying around her instead of torius simply because she stocks the larder so much better than he does. hah!
I was hoping for a little growth on him from his views on prostitutes. I mean sure he got closer to Vreva...but that is because she stopped being a prostitute to him and became a anti-slave spy. While it was cut way back in this novel I still get the feeling that he does not view prostitutes as people either...just stand ins for his mother. Nothing really challenged his views. I kinda of liked to see something along these lines in the future.Vreva wasn’t truly a prostitute though, at least not in the traditional sense. It may be the “oldest profession” but to her it was the means to an end, not simply a source of income.
But Torius doesn't know that, and didn't know that for a huge portion of the book! Torius really took a back seat to Celeste and Vreva in this book (imo) which is totally fine. He had a spotlight on him the first book, here we just get a chance to see him be the support to the others (in a really effective and humanizing reversal of the roles from before). I liked Torius significantly more after this book, even if he did technically get way less screen time.
Celeste really makes me wonder what she's doing for class levels. She's clearly advanced in power, but it's still the same question of "is she advancing along HD or just picking up sorcerer now?" either way I like how she's finding herself and really coming into her own. Interestingly this was the first time we see her function fully independently of Torius, although it follows a theme from the first book where she is actually the one who is adept at inspiring the crew and leading the charge in battle. She rallied the crew against the ceancas or whatever and she did that again the with demoniac priestess. Pretty dang awesome how well she does for herself.
Moving on to the big two:
There were a lot of gripping points with Zarine and Vreva. For a long time I was really wondering if they would be able to work it out and actually survive in a way. I don't know how much more I can say about Vreva save that I was really amused by her name reveal in the end because that's how I think of her anyways since I am terrible with character names and usually just insert my own (I kept thinking of Astrus as Atrus from Myst for example). Just an observation. Secondly I am terribly amused at the idea of a completely enchantment-based, specialized sorceress who has a plethora of spells like "prestidigitation" and "mending" and the charms and minor illusion and at most some like, +cha boosts or something, and then in the middle of all that she has "Fireball." Haha! "just in case" or something, she can blow the whole room and flee! would have been a pretty fantastic answer to Zarine in the restaurant!
Zarine: I'm really fascinated by the other reactions to Zarine in this thread, in part because it took me a loooooong long time to work out my own feelings towards her as well. At first I found her cute, and then very sympathetic, and then when she confronts Vreva in the restaurant I thought that perhaps she might even be... um, sort of tragic? or at least, I felt for her position and was riveted by the duress she might have been under!
But then the other stuff happened. And... I kind of feel that she's one of the vilest characters I've ever read. Haha, in a good way!
So backing up a bit, I read a lot and yeah there are a ton of evil characters out there that are generically evil. They kill puppies and villages and blood and gore and blah blah - what really gets to me about Zarine in this case though was that it was just a few "minor" (relatively) acts, that were excused by Vreva (for some reason >.>) that just... they just felt really "real" to me. It was such a visceral reaction that I had to her, and I haven't had that sort of reaction to a character in a long time so, like, imo this was really well done. A second part of this is that I personally feel that the best villains are the ones that break the alignment system (and you have an LG villain that a horrible monster that still fits LG, or in this case an LN villain that's a horrible monster that still fits LN).
Now the main reason that I frowned at Zarine was because of the order of events that things happened in: namely, the very first thing she finds out is that Vreva truly does love her. She finds this out before the torture, before murdering Saffron, before the implied gang-rape/whatever happens to Vreva in the fleshworks. Like, she did all that stuff knowing in zero uncertain terms that Vreva was telling the absolute truth and that this CG freedom-fighter had fallen for her LN Abadarian self. I think I might have felt differently had things happened in the reverse order, or had they happened differently? But I dunno, it just made me really... withdraw from her.
Which kind of confused me because I can normally forgive a LOT for the sake of a solid romance and (up until this point) they had a really cute one. Like, even the torture and whatever happened at the Fleshworks (I know it's vague so I'm leaving it as such), it's like... yeah I could sort of let it slide if Zarine made up for it. But murdering Saffron? That really put me out of sorts and I couldn't decide why until I sat and gave it some serious thought for the last two weeks.
One of hte things I do for many relationships in books is play with the characters' genders and try and imagine what they would be like as two dudes, two ladies, reversed genders, etc. Like, what if Celeste was the dude and Torius was the chick, etc. I especially do it with same sex couples because they run a little closer to my heart and it can help me find places where I'm really uncomfortable with what gets written (like if turning one of the dudes into a chick reveals that they're actually a straight up cliche hetero couple from Pretty Woman with Julia Roberts copy-pasted as a dude or something).
Thinking about if Zarine was a dude made me be kind of like "Oh... oh okay. She's basically mad at Vreva, so she killed something Vreva liked. She's the boyfriend that murder's his ex-girlfriend's dog because she dumped him."
And that, like, really hit home for me, for some reason. Like, there's so much that makes their relationship seem like Vreva really was... basically the abused girlfriend who didn't want to believe that Zarine was capable of the horrible, awful things that Zarine does, right from the start - things that any normal person would balk at. I mean she tortures freedom fighters - people who are following the laws of their countries, for a living. Moreover, when she finds out that a freedom fighter was someone she liked, she decides to do literally everything she can to destroy that person on every single level possible. The whole "giving Vreva to the Fleshworks" thing didn't seem like that big of a deal until I thought about how Vreva had told her that sex was a sacred act of Calistra, so like there Zarine is even looking to spit on the faith of another god for the sake of her revenge.
All of that on top of Saffron's murder, which even when I first read it I was like "wow, thank god Saffron was killed right there" because I have zero doubt that Zarine would have burned Saffron alive if she thought it would have pained Vreva more (or gotten her to talk).
So yeah, all of that is why I personally saw Zarine as one of the most vile, and like, genuinely repulsive villains I'd seen, and I genuinely do mean it as a real compliment that a character can get that much of a reaction out of me! Normally I'm pretty mellow about characters, but in this case, it was the little details that got me! Anyways that was just my thought chain behind how I got to my opinion of her (and i want to emphasize that my opinion is just that, i can totally see people feeling otherwise about her). It was just that that thought of "wow she's the person who kills her ex's pets because she's mad she loves them more than her" really got to me.
All that said, I really hope that Zarine survived, if only so that we see her be the one slave that Vreva DOESN"T free. Instead, Vreva is like "sorry, it's the law" and leaves her shackled and walks away with a clean conscience, finally recognizing what an awful and abusive person Zarine is. Meanwhile, Zarine falls from faith and goes to the Court of Apostates or whatever Hell it is that those who fail to live up to their own standards goes to.
Haha, I'm sorry, I really liked Saffron! and not just saffron, but the whole concept of how much Vreva cared for him. He truly did feel like an extension of her soul (which a lot of flavor usually attributes to familiars) and the whole aspect of him being a constant companion that kept her sane through all the spywork she did really shone through. He was one of the best-written familiar's I've ever read. I'm actually less mad at Zarine than I am at Vreva though for how willing she was to let Zarine get away with murdering him, simply because Zarine wasn't able to put on her big girl pants and deal with the fact that she's so sexy the freedom fighter spy fell in love with her. While I loved all the scenes of Vreva mourning Saffron and even how little she cared about actually getting revenge (because after all, that wouldn't do anything to fix the hole in her heart), I did want to throttle her every time she excused Zarine's actions and put the blame on herself. Like, lady, how did you ever become a master spy if you're sooooooooo sooooooo soooooooo self-loathing!
Though actually I suppose that does probably tie in a lot to her conforming to whatever she thinks people around her will like. Huh, maybe I answered my own question about that? Anyways. Really great story, lot of fantastic, chewy elements and great food for thought. I thought it was a great read with a very realistic villain that is actually scary because she takes a bunch of normal things we hear about in everyday life and rolls them into one bundle and imo we're so enured to the awfulness of her actions that we don't see her for the crazy abuser that she actually is.
Haha but that's just me and my own reactions to the book, nothing more. Once again, I totally get people reacting WAY differently and I by no means make any claims that my interpretations are accurate or even right. Like I know you, John Kretzer, really enjoyed their relationship and I don't mean to disrespect your enjoyment of it at all, and welcome the chance for Zarine to try and salvage/redeem herself enough to prove me wrong! I am 100% willing to be moved on how I feel about Zarine and if she can prove herself she proves herself :)
I just love talking about the books with other people who've read them and that's what I wanted to share.
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Haha but that's just me and my own reactions to the book, nothing more. Once again, I totally get people reacting WAY differently and I by no means make any claims that my interpretations are accurate or even right. Like I know you, John Kretzer, really enjoyed their relationship and I don't mean to disrespect your enjoyment of it at all, and welcome the chance for Zarine to try and salvage/redeem herself enough to prove me wrong! I am 100% willing to be moved on how I feel about Zarine and if she can prove herself she proves herself :)
The thing is maybe I just sympathized with Zarina more than you...and understood the guilt Vreva felt for using her.
To me Zarina was a lonely person when we first saw her. She really had no connections to the people she served. Maybe because deep down she knew what she was doing was wrong...but she justified it by her faith. It is the law...is a common trap for good people to fall into and support something that is bad. Sure those freedom fighters are doing 'good' by completely disregarding the laws by murdering people....acts of piracy...etc. Sure I agree with them ultimately...but for people like Zarina I get why they do what they do.
Also lets not forget that Zarina had a relationship before this...and it ended badly. To me what happens with Vreva is very similar but a lot worse in that Vreva started the relationship to use Zarina...and even when she was falling in love was still using her. I think Zarina was hoping that her love would choose her and ignored what she does. Which is why I think she did redeem herself in that she realized she had to also choose love.
Yeah...Saffron death hit me hard also...but as I said...I can understand Zarina's pain enough to at least forgive what she did.
Also at the end both Zarina and Vreva chooses love and I am just a hopeless romantic.
Also I can understand where you are coming from (though if she is the vilest person you ever read about...I think Astrus has her beat hands down) and am not arguing I am just stating how I read Zarina.
And yes part of the reason why I want her to have survived is because I want to see her continue down the path of redemption and make it up to Vreva.
When will you be discussing A Tomb of Winter's Plunder?
Saturday I believe.
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If you're gonna respond to some thread comments, Mr. Jackson, can you also answer: were you hungry the whole time you wrote this book? because I was hungry the whole time reading it. yeah there was some crazy fare when the Stargazers were feeding the wealthy merchant previously, but damn Vreva is a certified GOURMAND. I cannot believe that she doesn't have a weight loss spell (or else need to eat a ton to fuel her spellpower) because haha every time Zarine showed up Vreva had like, a SIX COURSE MEAL laid out! lawlz I love Vrava so much. I can totally picture the stargazer crew rallying around her instead of torius simply because she stocks the larder so much better than he does. hah!
Ha! I'm always hungry...love food, and good food was definitely part of Vreva's elegance. To put on anything less than a beautiful spread would have raised suspicion. She does like her luxuries... I can't wait for you all to see where she goes!!! Muaa haa haa!
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I just want to say, as a closing note, thanks to everyone for a great discussion. I love hearing everyone's views. It's great to see that I evoked so much emotion with the story.
Here are some points for thought:
Torius has real issues that he keeps buried deep. He does hate pesh, though it's not as "visible" as his loathing of people who sell sex. I think living with a mother drug-addict/prostitute damaged him deeply. He does refuse to carry pesh as cargo in the first book, but that's as far as I went. Probably should have gone farther. His loathing of addiction was the main focus in that regard. He certainly has an addictive personality.
Zarina: She totally went a little crazy when she found out what Vreva had done to her. There is a horrible violation, in her eyes, of the betrayal Vreva perpetrated upon her. She seduced her, and even loved her, and it was all a lie. Killing Saffron (whom she did not know was a familiar) was lashing out. Also, he did attack her... What she did to Vreva was sheer revenge for her own pain, justified by her profession, and she undoubtedly regretted it the moment it was over. She's a very complicated character...
So, I'm happy everyone enjoyed it, and can't wait for February. I have seen the preliminary cover art, and you are all in for a treat...and quite a surprise where I take the characters.
Thanks again!