Ok so if I'm understanding correctly, you are saying that 'Readying a Move action' means the same thing as 'performing a Move action with a Standard action'.
Is this correct? Because if so I see why we are disagreeing. The Ready action rules aren't saying this.
Maintaining a grapple is a Standard action. When I maintain it I am performing a Standard action.
Greater Grapple lets me maintain it as a Move action because the rule says it is a Move action. I am not performing a Standard action with a Move action. I am just performing a Move action.
Loading a light crossbow is a Move action. When I load it I am performing a Move action.
Rapid Reload lets me reload as a Free action because the rule says it is a Free action. I am not performing a Move action with a Free action. I am just performing a Free action.
The rules tell us what action to "perform" in order to bring a certain activity about. If they say it is a Standard action, then we must perform a Standard action to do it. If they say it is a Move action, then we must perform a Move action to do it.
Readying is a Standard action. When I Ready an action, I am performing a Standard action. Choosing the action, setting the condition, experiencing the trigger, and carrying out what was readied are all part of the Standard action that I performed. Think of it like how nocking an arrow is an inherent part of an attack with a bow. When I attack with the bow, the activity of nocking the arrow, drawing back the string, aiming, and releasing are all part of the Standard action used to attack.
But again (if I'm understanding you correctly, and please pardon me if I'm not) you're saying 'Readying a Move action' = 'performing a Move action with a Standard action'. Where exactly are you finding that rule? Because I've read back and forth through the Ready section and I can't find that special rule anywhere.
To try to summarize it:
1. Rules say you get one swift action per round
2. Readying an action does not override that general rule
3. Readying does not change what type of action something is, though it might change the action economy cost (you are still using a swift action, even though it's costing a standard)
4. Hence, you can never Ready to take a second swift action, because that would be breaking rule #1
1. True.
2. True.
3. False. Readying DOES change the action. It has to. I'm allowed ONE Standard and ONE Move per turn. If I move and then Ready to Move again, I can't do so according to your interpretation. I've already Moved and I've already used my Standard to Ready, so I have no Move left to me (because you're saying my readied Move still counts as a Move and I'm only allowed 1 unless I burn my Standard to do so...which I don't have because it's tied up Readied). But if Readying changes the action into a Standard, then I can Move, Ready to Move again, and then actually Move when the trigger happens.
4. False. Readying does not use another Swift action. It uses your Standard.
Let me try it this way: Take a look at the rule quote again;
Ready
The ready action lets you prepare to take an action later, after your turn is over but before your next one has begun. Readying is a standard action. [Readying an action] does not provoke an attack of opportunity (though the action that you ready might do so).
Readying an Action: You can ready a standard action, a move action, a swift action, or a free action.
Now highlighted it a bit, and defined a pronoun, but that's it. If you look at that, it's talking about two actions. The first action is called Readying. This is a standard action that doesn't provoke an attack of opportunity. The second action is the action you take that you have readied. What types of actions can you ready? Standard, Move, Swift. Does it specifically say anywhere that you can't take two standard action a round? Nope all it says is:
A standard action allows you to do something, most commonly to make an attack or cast a spell.
We know that we can take two move actions so I'll skip that, then we move to swift actions:
A swift action consumes a very small amount of time, but represents a larger expenditure of effort and energy than a free action. You can perform only a single swift action per turn.
So yes with a Readied Action, you can take two Standard Actions, you cannot take two Swift Actions.
EDIT:..aaaand I skipped 4 pages. Sorry if the conversation has moved on.
These types of posts illustrate some of the confusion between what an "Action" is and what an "Action Type" is. I'm not saying this to put down or knock anyone. Really. I think Paizo did a great job putting together a great game and we're all a bunch of great gamers. But sometimes Pathfinder's Lexicon falls short and we're left arguing a point here or there because we're not sure what something like "wielding" means. (Apparently I've been calculating pit-jumping DC's wrong for years!)
Or maybe we're just too picky for our own good. :)
Regardless, the Ready action is never used to ready the Standard, Move, Swift, or Free actions.
Got your attention? No really. I'll wait until you're done rolling your eyes.
Done? Ok, good.
We all know what the Action Types are. Standard, Move, Swift, etc. So no debate there.
We also know what actions are. To avoid confusion, I'm going to refer to them as "Activities" from here on. Activities are those things we do during the game; attacking, drinking a potion, opening a door, or casting Featherfall. Each of these Activities has an Action Type associated with it that we must perform in order to resolve the Activity.
Do I want to attack? I need to perform a Standard action.
Do I want to reload my crossbow? I need to perform a Move action.
"Ready" is an Activity that we can do. It is special, because it is an Activity that allows me to ready another Activity to take place at a point between my turns the moment some stated condition happens.
When the writers of Pathfinder say "You can ready a standard action, a move action, a swift action, or a free action", they're not talking about readying the Action Types. They're just using short-hand to refer to a variety of Activities that appear across the different Action Type Lists. No one EVER sits at a table and says to the GM, "I'm going to Ready a Standard action if an orc comes through the door."
We all know if you said that, the GM would first look at you strangely (while the other players snickered) and then probably ask you what Activity you are readying.
Because that is what you do when you Ready.
1). You pick an Activity to Ready (any Activity that can be found on the Standard, Move, Swift, or Free lists is viable).
2). State the condition under which it will happen.
3). Then perform the Standard action that is required of you by RAW as a cost to your Action Economy.
4). If the condition takes place, then the Activity you Readied resolves.
5). It happens right before the Activity that triggered it and your Initiative is reset to just before the trigger.
This is basically how Ready works. No sorry. This is exactly how Ready works.
If you Ready to move away from the door, you are choosing an Activity that is normally paid with a Move action (hence why it's on the Move action list), but you are performing a Standard action to Ready and, under the right conditions later, to resolve it.
There is no such thing as "performing a Move action with a Standard action". You can Ready to move, but you're never performing a Move action. Readying requires you to perform a Standard action.
Because of this it is entirely possible to perform a Swift action (the one you're allowed on your turn), Ready an Activity that normally requires a Swift action (because you are performing a Standard action here), and then have the Readied action resolve when the condition is met because:
1). You aren't performing a Swift action to Ready. You are performing a Standard action to Ready an Activity.
2). You aren't performing a Swift action to resolve the Activity. That happens naturally as part of the Standard action you've performed when the stated condition happens.
and
3) Even if you wanted to count it as a Swift action, it is resolving outside of your turn, so you aren't performing a 2nd one during your turn anyway.
Now if you really feel like this is broken or shouldn't work this way, then feel free to petition the Dev's to change the rules. Or just Rule Zero it how you like at your table.
Wordy (again), but hopefully this helps. If nothing else, it's a great read. I'd give it 3.5 stars out of 5 myself!
Happy Gaming!
This is basically how Ready works. No sorry. This is exactly how Ready works.
If you Ready to move away from the door, you are choosing an Activity that is normally paid with a Move action
This is where you go wrong. You're absolutely correct right up until here. You're actually saying exactly what I said, until here. You're not "paying" for anything. You are using your Standard Action to use the Ready Maneuver. What does the Ready Maneuver allow you to do? Well it allows you to preform another action that you prepare. That other action, or activity as you call it, can be a Standard, Move, or Swift. Out of all of those actions, name the only one that says you can only preform it once per turn. There's only one.
(hence why it's on the Move action list), but you are performing a Standard action to Ready and, under the right conditions later, to resolve it.
Yes moving away is a Move Action. You are allowed to do that move action because you used a Standard Action to do that activity.
You spend so many paragraphs to make us understand that there are two separate actions going on, and then when you get to your conclusion you want us to forget what you said and pretend they really are all one action.
There is no such thing as "performing a Move action with a Standard action". You can Ready to move, but you're never performing a Move action. Readying requires you to perform a Standard action.
How are you coming to this conclusion? You just said above, that moving away is a move action, and now you're saying it isn't.
The real issue though is that you're saying you're right, and the reason you're right is because you're right. There is nothing in the rules that says moving away from a door isn't a move action. If I want to double move, I didn't take a Standard Action, and a Move Action, I used two Move Actions.
But really, and there's no getting around this, the rules specifically state you can only make 1 Swift action per round, and the rules also state that specific overrides general.
1)If you wish to cast a quickened spell, it requires a swift action.
2)If you have already used your swift action, you cannot then cast a quickened spell.
3)Ready does not allow you to violate this, as quickened spells are swift and you can only do one per turn.
Yes or no, is a quickened spell swift? yes.
Yes or no, can you cast a quickened spell with a standard action? no.
Yes or no, is a Ready action swift? People are arguing, so...
Yes it is swift-therefor you cannot use it to cast a second quickened spell.
No it is standard-since quickened requires swift, it cannot be used to cast a second quickened spell.
You can't pick and choose which action type Ready is to suit your attempts to break the game, that is rules abuse and GMs have every right to stop that.
No matter what ONE action type you assign to it, you can't use it to trigger two swift actions per round.
You can disagree, question my judgment, or infer I'm trying to cheat as you like. The fact remains you keep switching between "Actions" and "Action Types" as if you don't understand the difference between them.
The rule about ONE swift action per turn has been quoted or referenced quite a bit on here. No one is arguing against that rule. Everyone agrees with this rule. But some of you are misunderstanding what that rule is actually saying. You believe it is talking about all the various Activities that are normally activated by performing the Swift Action Type.
It's not.
If you take the time to notice what section of the Combat Chapter that rule appears in, you'd know what it's talking about. There are 2 areas we can find that text. Both are giving us a description of what the Swift Action Type is. This isn't talking about Activities at all. Just the Action Types that are part of the Action Economy and how many of them we get on our turn.
Why do we call reloading a light crossbow a Move Action? Because we are using short-hand to refer to an Activity that requires us to perform a Move "Action Type" to accomplish. But what if there was a way for us to reload that crossbow by performing a Free "Action Type"? Do we still call it a Move Action? Of course not. We call it a Free Action. The Activity of loading the crossbow remains the same, but our name for it changes to the new Action Type that's required.
Why do we call maintaining a Grapple a Standard Action? Because we are using short-hand here also to refer to an Activity that requires us to perform a Standard "Action Type" to accomplish. But what if there was a way for us to maintain that Grapple by performing a Move "Action Type"? Do we still call it a Standard Action? Again, no. We call it a Move Action. The Activity of maintaining hasn't changed. The short-hand name we use to refer to it has.
Why do we call self-healing with LoH a Swift Action? Because we are using short-hand once again to refer to an Activity that requires us to perform a Swift "Action Type" to accomplish. But what if there was a way for us to self-heal with LoH by performing a Standard "Action Type"? Do we still call it a Swift Action? Only if we want people looking at us funny. Same Activity, but different name for it.
We use this short-hand to refer to an Activity by the Action Type that is normally required to accomplish it. But if the Action Type that we need changes, then that Activity adopts the new Action Type name.
Readying is a Standard Action. It is a "Standard Action Type" Activity that sets up a different, conditional Activity much like the Contingency spell sets up a different, conditional spell.
When the readied activity "fires", we are not performing any additional Action Type beyond the Standard that we used to Ready much like when the contingency'd spell "fires", we are not performing any additional casting actions. Resolution of the effects are instantaneous.
Grey_Mage was absolutely correct that this thread is poorly named for a discussion like this. So I will be posting future comments in the FAQ requesting thread as that is where this type of thing needs to be.
The rule about ONE swift action per turn has been quoted or referenced quite a bit on here. No one is arguing against that rule. Everyone agrees with this rule. But some of you are misunderstanding what that rule is actually saying. You believe it is talking about all the various Activities that are normally activated by performing the Swift Action Type.
It's not.
You make some really great arguments in this post, and you almost had me convinced that I couldn't argue mechanics anymore that I could only go with the subjective game design (I'll get to that in a minute), but after thinking about, I think I still can:
Mechanics: Ready Action is a maneuver. It's just like Charge or Grapple. It's a mechanic that allows you to do something in game. It has it's own set of rules, limitations and benefits. Charge let's you take a move action to move (it has to be to move) and a standard action to attack. When you do that, you get +2 to hit, and you have to abide by some limitations. The Charge Maneuver lets you preform a move action and a standard action, even in instances that would normally only allow a standard action, like the surprise round. However, if something were to happen, and for some reason you couldn't use a move action to move, you can't say "Well I charge. Since charging isn't a move action, I can do it"
The Ready Action maneuver follows the same rules. It's a maneuver that allows you to take certain limitations to get certain benefits. It allows you to make two standard actions in a round if that's what you wanted to do, the limitation is that in order to take that second standard action (the first standard action being Ready an Action) the circumstances that you set have to be true. If they don't, you wasted your action.
Just like if you can't escape an entangle by saying you charge, you can't get around swift actions by saying you ready.
Game design: This is totally subjective and I have no real evidence that this is the way things are "supposed" to work. It's just my observations from the way rules are worded, and comments from the design team. So preface everything with "it seems to me that...":
The design team has gone to great lengths to make sure swift actions are once per turn. The game seems designed around that. They make abilities that would be way too powerful if spammed into swift or immediate actions. They made sure you knew you couldn't turn a move or standard action into a swift. Class abilities are designed with this in mind. If you try to get around this design feature with something as simple as a Readied Action (I ready an action that the next time I breath I...) you are asking for trouble.
Thank you. :) And I think you've raised some interesting points here as well. I can see how one might treat Readying like a maneuver of sorts. I don't think it's a bad idea to do so, particularly if those at the table are feeling a bad taste in their mouths with treating it how "our side" suggests. There are a few rules that do that to me (such as being able to talk outside of your turn, but that's another discussion). Personally I don't think it falls into the maneuver category, because it's not listed in either the Special Attacks section nor the Combat Maneuver subsection. But that could be because you can do a whole lot more than just attack.
The other issues I have with treating a Readied Swift as counting as a Swift has been mentioned before.
#1 At what point is the "Swift part" of my action "being used"? At the point that I ready? If so, then Readying isn't a Standard Action anymore as the rules say, but a Standard Action (plus my Swift if I'm Readying a Swift). Or at the point where my action triggers? But that's after my turn so I'm not violating any "ONE Swift per turn" rule. It should be treated as an Immediate Action here, but the rules don't give us any instruction on this at all.
#2 Charging is described as a Special Full-Round Action that has its movement restrictions clearly spelled out. Ready gives us no such descriptions or restrictions other than to tell us it is a Standard Action. What does it mean in game-terms to say Readying is a Standard Action, but you can Ready a Swift with it. Is it a Standard? Or is it a Standard that ALSO counts as my Swift? The answer isn't clearly spelled out and needs to be extrapolated (and that reminds me too much of Trigonometry...<shudder>).
I guess in a way I see it like the Contingency Spell that I mentioned on the other thread.
But more of that over there. :)
Saying a Readied action behaves the way you say because this spell behaves like a Readied action is a circular argument.
Maybe you're just misinterpreting both of them, because you seem to have forgotten to quote the rest of that last sentence there.
The readied action must be a standard, move, or swift action—it cannot be used to cast a spell or use a supernatural ability. This action counts as a readied action and doesn't count toward the number of actions the creature can take in a round.
...which certainly sounds to me like a Readied action doesn't count toward your number of actions...other than the Standard that it says it does, of course.
Again, though, can we please take this to the other thread? That one is more geared toward answering this issue in a FAQ.
I've spent a little time here and on the other thread discussing this "common speak" that the Developers have said Pathfinder was written for (as opposed to Legalese that a lawyer likes) and have cited a number of rules, and where they are found, to support my position. I have also taken the time to point out the problems that happen by applying your interpretation of the Ready rules to the game.
Your response is that you don't think it's FAQ worthy given your experience? I guess that answers that then.
Our discussion has been wholly enlightening. I'm sorry I wasn't able to convince you, but I wish you Happy Gaming. :)