Question in title. Basically, I'm not sure if I need to make a check vs his CMD to avoid an AOO AND vs his CMD + 5 to move through his space, or just simply vs his CMD + 5 to move through his space without penalty.
And this stacks with the decision to move at half movement speed, yes? So if I wanted to move at full speed and through an opponent's space, the DC would be his CMD + 15?
Question in title. Basically, I'm not sure if I need to make a check vs his CMD to avoid an AOO AND vs his CMD + 5 to move through his space, or just simply vs his CMD + 5 to move through his space without penalty.
Trekkie90909 wrote:
One check vs CMD +5; if you fail you stop moving adjacent to his space and provoke.
To explain this a bit more, this is because you only provoke one AoO (per opponent) from movement... The check for Tumble-thru negates an AoO resulting from your movement, so you don't have to worry about AoOs beyond that...
It is reasonable to rule that you do indeed provoke twice, as there are two separate conditions involved here.
Tumbling through a creature's square can be thought of as provoking for trying to enter their square and is unrelated to the normal AoO you draw from moving through a threatened area. For example, a tiny creature 5' stepping into another's square still provokes, despite 5' steps not normally triggering AoOs for moving through threatened areas.
Note that the same action CAN trigger more than one AoO. For example, if you cast a ranged attack spell while adjacent to an enemy, you will provoke twice. You just can't provoke twice for the same triggering condition. Thus, similarly, you could provoke once for the moving through an enemy's threatened area and then again for trying to enter their square - two different conditions.
Anyway, I'm just giving the counter-argument here as I don't think it's as clear cut as people are making it out to be. The other line of argument is also reasonable, but has been covered adequately by others above. In game, I usually just accept whichever way the GM wishes to rule it.
Tumbling through a creature's square can be thought of as provoking for trying to enter their square and is unrelated to the normal AoO you draw from moving through a threatened area. For example, a tiny creature 5' stepping into another's square still provokes, despite 5' steps not normally triggering AoOs for moving through threatened areas.
As you mostly pointed out, this is only defined for tiny, small, and diminutive creatures. There are very few ways for other-sized creatures to enter an opponent's space. If you are that tiny, then you don't need to make the acrobatics check to move through their space, just the check to negate the AoO from movement--because you can already enter their space due to your size. There's nothing to indicate that your normal average PC (i.e. core races or similar) will provoke from both entering an opponent's square and leaving a threatened square--it's just from leaving a threatened square.
Tumbling through a creature's square can be thought of as provoking for trying to enter their square and is unrelated to the normal AoO you draw from moving through a threatened area. For example, a tiny creature 5' stepping into another's square still provokes, despite 5' steps not normally triggering AoOs for moving through threatened areas.
As you mostly pointed out, this is only defined for tiny, small, and diminutive creatures. There are very few ways for other-sized creatures to enter an opponent's space. If you are that tiny, then you don't need to make the acrobatics check to move through their space, just the check to negate the AoO from movement--because you can already enter their space due to your size. There's nothing to indicate that your normal average PC (i.e. core races or similar) will provoke from both entering an opponent's square and leaving a threatened square--it's just from leaving a threatened square.
That's not entirely true. A creature of any size may enter another's square as long as they are at least 3 size categories different.
Anyway, I'm just trying to show there is some murkiness when it comes to entering the squares of foes, and that it's reasonable to regard these two provocations as being triggered from distinct conditions.
@Byakko, it's definitely an area where the rules are scattered about haphazardly. In your example for instance a 5' step does not provoke an attack of opportunity for entering an opponent's square because 5' steps never provoke.
Relevant Text::
5’ Step wrote:
You can move 5 feet in any round when you don't perform any other kind of movement. Taking this 5-foot step never provokes an attack of opportunity. You can't take more than one 5-foot step in a round, and you can't take a 5-foot step in the same round that you move any distance.
You can take a 5-foot step before, during, or after your other actions in the round.
You can only take a 5-foot-step if your movement isn't hampered by difficult terrain or darkness. Any creature with a speed of 5 feet or less can't take a 5-foot step, since moving even 5 feet requires a move action for such a slow creature.
You may not take a 5-foot step using a form of movement for which you do not have a listed speed.
On the other hand if you are tiny or smaller and in a position where you want to enter an opponent's square and have moved out of their threatened area (provoking an attack of opportunity), there is still the second attack of opportunity for entering their square.
Relevant Text::
Combat: Tiny, Diminutive, and Fine Creatures wrote:
Very small creatures take up less than 1 square of space. This means that more than one such creature can fit into a single square. A Tiny creature typically occupies a space only 2-1/2 feet across, so four can fit into a single square. 25 Diminutive creatures or 100 Fine creatures can fit into a single square. Creatures that take up less than 1 square of space typically have a natural reach of 0 feet, meaning they can't reach into adjacent squares. They must enter an opponent's square to attack in melee. This provokes an attack of opportunity from the opponent. You can attack into your own square if you need to, so you can attack such creatures normally. Since they have no natural reach, they do not threaten the squares around them. You can move past them without provoking attacks of opportunity. They also can't flank an enemy.
Combat: Square Occupied by Creature Three Size Categories Larger or Smaller wrote:
Any creature can move through a square occupied by a creature three size categories larger than itself.
A big creature can move through a square occupied by a creature three size categories smaller than it is. Creatures moving through squares occupied by other creatures provoke attacks of opportunity from those creatures.
Combat Reflexes and additional attacks of opportunity wrote:
…Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn't count as more than one opportunity for that opponent. All these attacks are at your full normal attack bonus.
This is not a violation of the general rules stating that moving out of more than one square does not provoke additional times because the tiny creature description is conditional upon entering a square.
And that's where things get a little hazy, because RAW the 'entering an opponent's square' rule is only for tiny or smaller creatures. Other creatures are not directly governed by that text. The general rules (in the above spoiler) only speak of moving 'through' an opponent's space as provoking, which the acrobatics check specifically denies (bottom spoiler). There's also a RAI question there as to whether 'entering' a square should be considered a separate type of action from 'moving through' a square, but there have already been threads on that topic.
Relevant Text::
Acrobatics wrote:
In addition, you can move through a threatened square without provoking an attack of opportunity from an enemy by using Acrobatics. When moving in this way, you move at half speed. You can move at full speed by increasing the DC of the check by 10. You cannot use Acrobatics to move past foes if your speed is reduced due to carrying a medium or heavy load or wearing medium or heavy armor. If an ability allows you to move at full speed under such conditions, you can use Acrobatics to move past foes. You can use Acrobatics in this way while prone, but doing so requires a full-round action to move 5 feet, and the DC is increased by 5. If you attempt to move through an enemy’s space and fail the check, you lose the move action and provoke an attack of opportunity.
Trekkie, as you noted, it does say "Creatures moving through squares occupied by other creatures provoke attacks of opportunity from those creatures." in the Three Size category section. I've always read this to mean that any movement into such squares provokes in the same way that tiny creatures do when entering others' squares. But you may be right in your overall analysis.
In any case, the general point I'm making is still valid. Namely, that there are two different trigger conditions involved when tumbling up to and through a foe, and thus two different AoOs may be allowed. (in the same way that a tiny creature may provoke twice for the same move action, as discussed above)
The acrobatics section lists "Move through a threatened area" as a different situation than "Move through an enemy's space". Is this enough to qualify it as a distinct and different opportunity for attack?
One check vs CMD +5; if you fail you stop moving adjacent to his space and provoke.
To explain this a bit more, this is because you only provoke one AoO (per opponent) from movement... The check for Tumble-thru negates an AoO resulting from your movement, so you don't have to worry about AoOs beyond that...
Well, the above is how I've always run it, but looking at RAW, I don't think that's justified...
Quote:
Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn't count as more than one opportunity for that opponent.
It DOESN'T actually work that "movement doesn't provoke more than once [per opponent], it is "moving out of threatened square AoO" that doesn't happen more than once (per opponent), not OTHER ways movement may provoke.
Now it seems reasonable that the MoveThruThreatenedArea/ MoveThruEnemySpace functions could be taken as different degrees of difficulty of THE SAME CHECK, thus, if you pass the MoveThruEnemySpace DC you are also passing the lower DC allowing you to ALSO avoid the "normal" AoO for movement.. But RAW doesn't quite make that explicit, beyond putting both functions in the same table/paragraph. The "Balance on Narrow Ledge" function of Acrobatics explicitly says "only one check is needed per round" but that is only written to be applicable to that section, and IMHO you ARE clearly intended to need to make more than one Tumble check per round if you attempt to Tumble thru the square of multiple opponents... So the "normal" AoO may very well happen (if you don't make a second check to avoid that).
Still, I think it is deserving of a FAQ (to solicit possible Errata clarification) to ask:
"Does the DC=CMD+5 to move thru enemy's square function of Tumble ALSO achieve the effect of the DC=CMD to not provoke from normal movement function of Tumble"?
A follow up question would be, if you fail the CMD+5 DC but pass the CMD DC, your move action ends... Would you be able to use a remaining Move Action to move normally WITHOUT worry of provoking AoO from original opponent, because you already passed the DC to avoid AoO from leaving threatened square?
Note: the "MoveThruThreatenedArea" function depends on how fast you are moving (1/2 speed or not), the base DC assumes you are only trying to move 1/2 speed, so if you pass that DC (but not CMD+5, thus certainly not CMD+10) then presumably your 2nd move action would also be subject to that speed limit (if you don't want to provoke). Although separating the move action that triggers the check from the move action that achieves the movement (in the way proposed) DOES seem rather cludgy, and may even raise other questions (e.g. what if you decide to Swift Cast a Longstrider spell after the first Move Action is terminated, before starting the second Move Action, i.e. changing your movement speed and thus "allowed" 1/2 speed move distance).
I am hitting FAQ for that, please also do so if you'd like...
RAW the acrobatics check at DC = CMD+5 specifically allows you to ignore AoOs for moving through threatened squares. Not that this ever comes up except in fringe cases against very large enemies where you can move through their space without having to make an acrobatics check to begin with. Read my post 3 above yours it's all explained.
Not sure how you see the RAW "specifically" stating that, i.e. other than inferring based on presence in same paragraph (which I already stated). On the same basis, I don't think it's clear by RAW that the stuff about exceeding 1/2 movement speed boosting the DC necessarily applies to MoveThruOpponentSquare function. Now as I said, I do think it's reasonable to infer based on paragraph location (and paragraph structure of Acrobatics: "You can use Acrobatics to move... In addition, you can... Finally, you can...") that these two DCs are varying effects of one single check/function/usage (and you automatically get the lower effect when you qualify for higher effect). I'm just saying that I don't think that is made explicitly clear by RAW, since formatting customs aren't given as strict rules, and there's nothing in RAW that explicitly conflicts with the idea that they are discrete checks/functions. The fact they are listed as different "situations" (on the Table) would normally imply they are in fact, distinct from each other. I honestly don't think the entry was written with the idea in mind that you could be attempting both usages simultaneously.
"you can move through a threatened square without provoking an attack of opportunity from an enemy by using Acrobatics." That's any acrobatics check (DC = CMD). To additionally move through your opponent's square the DC increases to CMD +5.
you can move through a threatened square without provoking an attack of opportunity from an enemy by using Acrobatics.
Which could indicate that you need to roll one acrobtic check each square you move through. While movement only provokes one attack from one opponent, no matter how many squares you move through, the acrobatics check avoids provoking for that one sqare, meaning that any other movement still provokes as you have not already provoked. This would then also mean that you'd need to roll one additional at CMD+5 to move through an enemy.
Otherwise it should/would state that you can move at half your speed and not provoke any attack of oportunity if you succeed at a DC = CMD or CMD+5 of it involves moving through an enemy.
However, I only do one roll now days, takes too much time otherwise and it's just for ONE AoO.
I simply make the player state his movement plans and adjudicate it it one space at a time but use the most difficult modifier vs each opponent. For instance:
The acrobat is next to opponent A and 10' away from opponent B. Acrobat attempts to leave the square threatened by A, pass through the square threatened by B, then enter/pass through B's square.
The acrobat makes a single skill check. Apply it vs A's CMD.
Then the check is applied vs B's CMD at the worst point in the movement (entering B's square since its at +5 DC). Note: acrobat also takes -2 penalty due to multiple opponents as well).
If he were to fail the check at DC+5 I would then retro the check against the threatened square DC to see if he even made it into B's square or if he got stopped beforehand.
The intent is minimize rolls for a single action and keep the table moving while staying true to RAW.
As for basic tumbling, there's a FAQ on how to handle it:
FAQ wrote:
Acrobatics: How does Acrobatics work when you use it to avoid attacks of opportunity? When do you make checks? How many do you make?
Acrobatics allows you to make checks to move through the threatened area of foes without provoking attacks of opportunity. You must make a check the moment you attempt to leave a square threatened by an enemy, but only once per foe. The DC (which is based of the Combat Maneuver Defense of each foe), increases by +2 for each foe after the first in one round. The DC also increases by +5 if you attempt to move through a foe. In the case of moving out of the threatened square of two foes at the same time, the moving character decides which check to make first.
For example, a rogue is flanked by a meek goblin and a terrifying antipaladin. The rogue move away from both of them, provoking an attack of opportunity from both, but uses Acrobatics to attempt to negate them. She must move at half speed while threatened by these foes and can choose which to check against first. If she fails a check, she provokes an attack of opportunity from that foe. If she makes it, she does not provoke from moving through that foe's threatened space this turn.
