Question about the Bungle Spell

[The Princess Lair]

http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateMagic/spells/bungle.html#bungle

It says: The action must be one deliberately taken by the target on its turn.

So my question is.. As far as I know, you can deliberately chose to fail any save, or you can at least chose to fail a will save.. So can you use Bungle to give someone -20 on their next saving throw?

More specifically, can you use Bungle to give someone -20 on their nexy Will Save?

I figure fortitude is a safe you usually cannot chose to fail. I mean either your body can take a certain poison, or it can't, however you can chose to fail a fortitude against a Gust of Wind.

[Dave Justus]

A creature can willing fail any saving throw.

However, I don't believe that making a saving throw would be considered a 'deliberate action.' Further saving throws are typically made during someone else's turn, not ones own.

The biggest problem with this spell, is that their are deliberate actions that can be done as a free action (knowledge check) that can fairly easily negate the utility of this spell completely. Of course the creatures that are most likely to know what the spell is and thus be able to easily circumvent it, are also generally the least likely to fair their save against it to begin with.

[Bob Bob Bob]

Yeah, I think you missed the more important part.

Bungle wrote:

The target takes a –20 penalty on its next attack roll or check that requires a d20 roll. The action must be one deliberately taken by the target on its turn. Creatures with more than 10 HD are unaffected by this spell.

Bolding mine. I'm not sure that a saving throw is a "check". That language is used for ability checks and skills, not for attacks and saving throws (that's why it calls out attack rolls specifically). In addition, a saving throw is never deliberate. You never "choose" to make a saving throw, something forces you to.

[Zhayne]

I would recommend putting the word 'meaningful' between 'next' and 'attack roll or check', just to avoid someone choosing to make a Knowledge (Nature) check to ID a local piece of harmless flora to burn the penalty.

[Imbicatus]

The fix is add "as a standard action" after "The action must be one deliberately taken by the target on its turn".

On another note, does being in the Jungle add a circumstance penalty to the save?

[KingOfAnything]

Interesting. I might have my witch use this in combo with Excruciating Deformation. The save each round is explicitly an action the target can chose to take.

[Cycada]

KingOfAnything wrote:

Interesting. I might have my witch use this in combo with Excruciating Deformation. The save each round is explicitly an action the target can chose to take.

That spell should be renamed 'Inflict Bonitis", so they can only regret meeting you. Unfortunately, the spell's save is neither an attack roll, nor a check, so the Bungle spell would not apply.