By which I mean a mount per the 1st level spell.
Do I automatically have enough control over it, do I need speak with animals, do I need to find some special way to train it real quick, do I make a handle animal check, or do I just give it an apple.
This is something I plan to be doing with some regularity in PFS, so 'ask your GM' wouldn't be particularly helpful (except maybe to highlight that the rules aren't clear and that I rely on my mount being able to fail its save at my own peril).
Ride check I'd imagine for the typical usage of it.
Took a quick look at the ride skill. The "special actions" listed there don't seem general enough to cover what I am seeking to ask my mount to do. =(
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
What do you want it to do? Being vauge is frustrating, stops people from giving you an answer, and makes it seem like you're trying to trick people into a ruling.
What are you expecting to do with it? It's simply a mount, not a combat monster you can have for free. You can't get anything out of it other than what the spell says you can.By which I mean a mount per the 1st level spell.
Do I automatically have enough control over it, do I need speak with animals, do I need to find some special way to train it real quick, do I make a handle animal check, or do I just give it an apple.
This is something I plan to be doing with some regularity in PFS, so 'ask your GM' wouldn't be particularly helpful (except maybe to highlight that the rules aren't clear and that I rely on my mount being able to fail its save at my own peril).
I'm aware it is just a horse and not a combat monster. Not really relevant for current purposes. I don't want or need it to be anything other than a (potentially expendable) horse. I just need to know how to get that horse to do a specific thing.
What do you want it to do? Being vauge is frustrating, stops people from giving you an answer, and makes it seem like you're trying to trick people into a ruling.
I was thinking of using it as an emanation carrier for effects that may not always be beneficial (such as silence, so I can leave it behind when I don't want it in effect and go back to it when I want it), or that give me an advantage at the mount's expense (such as healing thief to give me more healing from a channel) or fear it so that I can make it carry something to the enemy (such as the silence emanation, explody-things or a mirror that has been targeted by a mirror hideaway spell).
I thought I was already being specific in identifying the summon spell I was hoping to be able to use, namely the mount from the mount spell. It easily lasts all day and carries me when I'm lazy to walk and moves faster than I normally do, but at higher levels, I'm also looking to see how much mileage I can get out of the mount as a readily-available expendable target, and one of the factors would be whether I can or need to get around the communication barrier (it being a horse). If I can avoid wasting resources by directing it to voluntarily fail its save, it'd become a much more viable strategy.
So I was asking pretty much exactly what I asked in the OP: how can I get specifically a horse from the mount spell to voluntarily fail a save against a spell that I cast on it (which can be any spell cast by myself, as required)?
I know you're looking for a hard and fast rule but I don't think there is one.
Its not part of training, or a trick, but I think mounts in a pathfinder universe would simply be used to accepting spells that people cast on them.
The spell mount, unfortunately, doesn't say that its combat trained, or even specifically that its riding trained (though you might interpret serves willingly and well to mean the latter)
You would have to give a mount the command to go over there, which is either the attack or seek command, neither of which come with your standard issue riding horse. Its also kind of complicated by the fact that your mount can't hear you with silence on it.
If you have a regular dm, ask them. Otherwise this tactic, while pretty cool, is slingshotting through a LOT of gray areas.
I know you're looking for a hard and fast rule but I don't think there is one.
Its not part of training, or a trick, but I think mounts in a pathfinder universe would simply be used to accepting spells that people cast on them.
The spell mount, unfortunately, doesn't say that its combat trained, or even specifically that its riding trained (though you might interpret serves willingly and well to mean the latter)
You would have to give a mount the command to go over there, which is either the attack or seek command, neither of which come with your standard issue riding horse. Its also kind of complicated by the fact that your mount can't hear you with silence on it.
If you have a regular dm, ask them. Otherwise this tactic, while pretty cool, is slingshotting through a LOT of gray areas.
Thanks BNW, guess I'll check with my GMs at the start of each scenario how they read "serves willingly". As for how I was hoping to get the silenced horse to go to the enemy, I was thinking of the (also first level) spell spook. Enemy can't hear the clip-clopping of the horse, or anyone from the party for that matter, but when I want the horse to go in a certain direction, I just dismount and spook it in that direction. Best part is that I can get my familiar with the cracked vibrant purple prism ioun stone to do it for me, so I still have my standard action AND don't need to further move out of the silence emanation to do it. And since I (or my familiar) spooked it, I can be sure it won't be silencing me whilst it runs around in a panic. XD
But not so viable if I can't make sure it will play ball and fail its will save for me, especially since iirc a spell cast from a spell-storing ioun stone is treated as if it was cast from a wand (i.e. lowest possible DC). The hideaway-trojan-horse(literally a horse) idea might require the assistance of a druid casting dominate animal, but again if it makes the save, it'd be a frustrating waste of a 3rd level spell.
Hmm...that's a good point. I was already considering a Silvanshee agathion improved familiar... Comes online a little later but it's a decent option that remains useful even if the GM decides that the Silvanshee can't convince the horse to "don't resist this spell I'm going to cast on you." I'm particularly keen on pulling off the mirror-trojan-horse idea at least once in my next character's PFS career. XD
I was hoping there was an item or rule mechanic somewhere that would allow me to reliably and consistently (ab)use the mount this way, but I suppose this might be as far as I can get.
Unless anyone else has any ideas or knows of some PFS-legal item or skill rule or low-level/long-duration spell out there.
Speak with Animals. A big maybe.Hard to use Speak With Animals if you have Silence up...
Speak with it beforehand. Spell lasts 2 hours per level, which was why I started thinking about how to maximise its use in the first place. =)
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Being in PFS sometimes means asking the DM how the laws of physics work today...
and the rules of morality as well I suppose.
You can't send it elsewhere, you can't make it do tricks, you can't get it to fight. And you can't get it to read explosive rune pages. You either use it as a mount, or nothing at all.
Wow, um, ok, I'll note that this is your interpretation. Personally I've used the horse as many things that a regular horse would be able to do other than just serving as a mount per se. Distracting goblins, testing bridges, impromptu cover, to name a few.
Way I read it, the spell conjures a horse, with all that entails. No one's saying it can read explosive runes (in fact you're the first person to bring this up), but personally I see no reason it can't be sent places in ways a normal horse can be sent, or be affected by spells or skills the same way a normal horse can. And that's what I asked from the beginning - whether there are spells, magic items or skill-uses that can make a horse act in a certain way without pre-training, and I also accepted from the beginning that there may be no applicable rules.
There's a difference between looking for novel ideas within the rules and trying exploit/stretch the meaning of vague rules. Unless you mean my character is trying to exploit the horse, in which case guilty as charged. Feel free to notify the GSPCA.
If you have a regular dm, ask them. Otherwise this tactic, while pretty cool, is slingshotting through a LOT of gray areas.Hmm... Apparently using a summoned pony as an expendable harmful spell delivery system isn't a pointy stick worthy offense. It's good to know where the line is.
I wouldn't be too sure of that. She went off into the woods looking for a pre felled log that wasn't being used as anyones house and a pint of oil...
One of the reasons casters don't run away with my campaigns, is because I am that strict when it comes to adjudicating spells and magic. If there is a grey area, I almost always err on the side where it's disadvantageous to the caster. Or anyone else trying to create an exploit.
Casters will still do that, but will simply have to make do with less varied options like the dazing wall of fire, dazing black tentacles and toppling magic missile barrage.
|
If you cast this spell at my table I'd consider the horse a normal, non-combat trained horse and have it save vs. any harmful spell like fear. For beneficial spells I wouldn't make it roll. I'd make you roll animal handling to make it do the things you are asking above like moving ahead across a bridge. So make sure you have some ranks in handle animal. I think creative spell casting should be encouraged, but moderated.
(If memory serves, isn't there a spell that can also turn a normal animal into a combat trained one?)
Hope this helps.
I think the worst (ie, most harsh) interpretation against you would to be require you to "push" (DC 25 handle animal) twice. One to fail the save, one to do whatever you had in mind. The second one may have a circumstance penalty attached depending on how you altered to environment with the spell.
Also, for emanations, the mount has a bit, bridle, and saddle, which could all function as "object touched."
I suppose another option would be to cast the spell on a rope, put the rope on the horse. Smacking it on the rump and telling it to "giddyup" ought to work.
And don't tell that druid i said this, but it comes with the added advantage of not going POOF when someone kills the horse.
If you cast this spell at my table I'd consider the horse a normal, non-combat trained horse and have it save vs. any harmful spell like fear. For beneficial spells I wouldn't make it roll. I'd make you roll animal handling to make it do the things you are asking above like moving ahead across a bridge. So make sure you have some ranks in handle animal. I think creative spell casting should be encouraged, but moderated.
(If memory serves, isn't there a spell that can also turn a normal animal into a combat trained one?)
Hope this helps.
I agree with all of this, which was why I was wondering if there was any way to make the process easier, such as a magic item.
I suppose ranks in handle animal might have to be it, to push the animal to "perform a task ...that it doesn’t know but is physically capable of performing". And then hide from the druids and rangers...
|
I think the worst (ie, most harsh) interpretation against you would to be require you to "push" (DC 25 handle animal) twice. One to fail the save, one to do whatever you had in mind. The second one may have a circumstance penalty attached depending on how you altered to environment with the spell.
Also, for emanations, the mount has a bit, bridle, and saddle, which could all function as "object touched."
Nope. I would NOT allow you to push the animal to fail a save. Not without some means of communication at the very least. How are you telling the animal to fail its will save?
Nope. I would NOT allow you to push the animal to fail a save. Not without some means of communication at the very least. How are you telling the animal to fail its will save?I think the worst (ie, most harsh) interpretation against you would to be require you to "push" (DC 25 handle animal) twice. One to fail the save, one to do whatever you had in mind. The second one may have a circumstance penalty attached depending on how you altered to environment with the spell.
Also, for emanations, the mount has a bit, bridle, and saddle, which could all function as "object touched."
The same way you make an animal do anything against its will, by pushing it.
Pushing still requires definable actions... i.e. geting a horse to move, etc. Pushing only means that you want your animal to do a type of action it would normally do, but not do in the circumstance you want it to... i.e. riding into fire. There is no way to train or push an animal to "fail a save" as that is not a definable action for an animal to take.
RAW you can't get an animal to eat a nice tasty t bone steak either because there's no trick for it...
|
|
Horses aren't carnivores... they can't eat steak.RAW you can't get an animal to eat a nice tasty t bone steak either because there's no trick for it...
Pushing still requires definable actions... i.e. geting a horse to move, etc. Pushing only means that you want your animal to do a type of action it would normally do, but not do in the circumstance you want it to... i.e. riding into fire. There is no way to train or push an animal to "fail a save" as that is not a definable action for an animal to take.
He said animal, not horse. RAW you can't get a horse to eat a nice tasty apple because there's no trick for it.
This is a massive grey area for society x.x
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Horses aren't carnivores... they can't eat steak.RAW you can't get an animal to eat a nice tasty t bone steak either because there's no trick for it...
Pushing still requires definable actions... i.e. geting a horse to move, etc. Pushing only means that you want your animal to do a type of action it would normally do, but not do in the circumstance you want it to... i.e. riding into fire. There is no way to train or push an animal to "fail a save" as that is not a definable action for an animal to take.He said animal, not horse. RAW you can't get a horse to eat a nice tasty apple because there's no trick for it.
This is a massive grey area for society x.x
You laugh, but different philosophies on how to handle animal companions can get some wth moments when different camps meet. Some people treat them like robots with only very limited programming of published tricks. Some people treat them like characters. While the later can be used to push for advantages (Mr slinky would totally go after the wizard! He hates the smell of bat guano) it comes with a little less absurdity. (there's no trick to get your animal to eat. It starves to death.)
absurdity. (there's no trick to get your animal to eat. It starves to death.)
Ha, I'm totally stealing this line.
|
|
I suppose another option would be to cast the spell on a rope, put the rope on the horse. Smacking it on the rump and telling it to "giddyup" ought to work.
And don't tell that druid i said this, but it comes with the added advantage of not going POOF when someone kills the horse.
And the rope wouldn't get a Will save against the Silence spell, so no need to mess around getting the mount to fail the save.
Overall, rope. Training harness, IIRC, gives a bonus to Handle Animal checks with the animal it is on, might be only for training it, though.
So, Mount spell.
Silence on a normal piece of rope or thread (purchasable items)
Attach rope to Mount's tack, it now carries Silence with it, no Will save required.
Use Handle Animal to push it to go someplace, penalties due to lack of sound, possible bonus due to actions
Mount goes to target area.
Enemy wastes actions killing Mount.
Rope with Silence falls to ground when Mount disappears.
Laugh silently but evilly....
|
|
You laugh, but different philosophies on how to handle animal companions can get some wth moments when different camps meet.
Absolutely agreed. Which is why you can expect massive table variation whenever you go outside the normally defined tricks.
I mostly go by "If the situation is unclear in the rules I go by what makes sense to me, ie what I consider reasonable for an animal of the appropriate type".
Which sometimes means I'm quite liberal (I allow appropriate animals to climb things with no hassles) and sometimes quite conservative (cannot push an animal you can't communicate with to deliberately fail a saving throw).
If you're planning on doing something weird
1) Expect Table Variation
2) Tell the GM up front what you're planning on doing. You're MUCH more likely to get a result you'll like when the GM has time to consider your arguments
3) The GM IS right, even if you disagree with them
4) Expect Table Variation
|
|
Horses aren't carnivores... they can't eat steak.RAW you can't get an animal to eat a nice tasty t bone steak either because there's no trick for it...
Pushing still requires definable actions... i.e. geting a horse to move, etc. Pushing only means that you want your animal to do a type of action it would normally do, but not do in the circumstance you want it to... i.e. riding into fire. There is no way to train or push an animal to "fail a save" as that is not a definable action for an animal to take.He said animal, not horse. RAW you can't get a horse to eat a nice tasty apple because there's no trick for it.
This is a massive grey area for society x.x
Sure there is. Actually, there are two.
Perform (DC 15 to train): Animal performs a variety of simple tasks, such as eating an apple on command. (whether it is hungry or not...)
Entertain (DC 25 to train): Animal performs a trick so entertainingly that it can impose a -2 perception check on the audience to notice anything else going on. (This would be balancing the apple on it's nose till you tell it to eat...)