Tiers, and the Lem Example

[Ron Lundeen]

I think I get the new "tiers" system, and the expanded example about Lem was helpful. But here's a question I had: could Example Lem be Tier 3?

The rules state that "A character advances to the next tier in one of two ways: either after completing an adventure and gaining its adventure reward, or by choosing to do so after gaining the card feat for his tier."

In the example, Lem finishes 01-1A, 01-1B, 01-1D, 01-2A (and gains a card feat but chooses not to go up a tier), then 01-1C, finishing an adventure and thus going to Tier 2.*

But couldn't Lem finish 01-1A, 01-1B, 01-1D, 01-2A (and gain a card feat and thus choose to go to Tier 2), then play 01-1C, finishing the adventure and then going to Tier 3?

Put another way, are there conditions under which you can do either "trigger" action (gain a card feat, or complete an adventure) but not go up a tier?

* Side question: Can Lem complete 01-1C as in this example but choose not to go up a tier at that time, either, remaining in Tier 1?

[Tanis O'Connor]

Ron Lundeen wrote:

I think I get the new "tiers" system, and the expanded example about Lem was helpful. But here's a question I had: could Example Lem be Tier 3?

But couldn't Lem finish 01-1A, 01-1B, 01-1D, 01-2A (and gain a card feat and thus choose to go to Tier 2), then play 01-1C, finishing the adventure and then going to Tier 3?

Put another way, are there conditions under which you can do either "trigger" action (gain a card feat, or complete an adventure) but not go up a tier?

* Side question: Can Lem complete 01-1C as in this example but choose not to go up a tier at that time, either, remaining in Tier 1?

There are conditions under which you can gain a card feat but not go up a tier; your quoted example is valid by the rules. We call this Shooting Yourself in the Foot, and it is not recommended.

When you complete an adventure, as Lem would when he finished 1-C, you automatically go up a tier, no choice involved. This is to prevent adventure reward farming.

[elcoderdude]

Then is this example accurate?

Ron Lundeen wrote:

But couldn't Lem finish 01-1A, 01-1B, 01-1D, 01-2A (and gain a card feat and thus choose to go to Tier 2), then play 01-1C, finishing the adventure and then going to Tier 3?

In fact, if Lem is Tier 2 when he completes 01-1C, he then must go to Tier 3. Correct?

[Andrew L Klein]

I'm guessing the intent was that completing a lower tier adventure does not up your tier, and I definitely believe that should be the case. If Lem is Tier 2, completing a Level 1 Adventure should never up his tier.

[Tanis O'Connor]

Andrew L Klein wrote:

I'm guessing the intent was that completing a lower tier adventure does not up your tier, and I definitely believe that should be the case. If Lem is Tier 2, completing a Level 1 Adventure should never up his tier.

Yes it should, otherwise he could play every Adventure 1 ever released and collect all their rewards.

[Andrew L Klein]

True. I was just thinking of Elcoder's latest post and having a Tier 3 with nothing but 1 cards, but then remembered he could still play Tier 2 adventures so he wouldn't be super far behind.

[Theryon Stormrune]

After thinking about Tanis's response above, I think it is fine the way it is. If someone wants to bump up their tier (through the process stated above) without gaining their feats from the prior tier, they can do so.

We can't protect people from making bad decisions (in our opinions) about the way they play. Maybe they have a reason to do so.

[Andrew L Klein]

Agreed. Well, not that they may have a reason, but that we can't (and really, shouldn't) protect people from making bad decisions.

[Indy Rook]

I'm still trying to wrap my head around this and have a few questions. Let's take the example of Lem who has completed 1-1A, 1-1B and 1-1D. I get that Lem can advance to tier 2 and pick up a card feat after playing 1-2A because that's Lem's 4th scenario. All well and good. Now come the questions. For arguments sake, let's say Lem plays 1-2B, 1-2C and 1-2D next and that completes adventure 2.

1. When would Lem get a skill feat? After playing 1-2A (the first scenario in that adventure) or after playing 1-2B (the first scenario after advancing one tier)? I'm assuming the latter, but thought I would ask.

2. After finishing adventure 2, Lem advances to tier 3. As I read the rules, Lem also gets a card feat even though only 3 scenarios were played since the last card feat, because you get the remaining feats when you complete an adventure. Is that the right interpretation? Is this a mechanism for Lem to catch up with the rest of the group without ever having to go back and finish 1-1C?

Thanks in advance for any clarification.

[Andrew L Klein]

1) After paying 1-2B. Feats are based on tier not adventure.

2) I believe yes, when you advance a tier you gain any feats from the last tier that you didn't unlock yet. As rarely as it may happen, it's to prevent exactly your example.

[Theryon Stormrune]

I'm agreeing with Andrew on this one.

[dragonvan]

1. In the exemple of the p. 19, when the case "yes" for "Replaying?" is checked, should we write how many attempt was made by the player?

2. It a player player the scenario in many attempt in differents dates, does the coordinator indicated the info?

[Andrew L Klein]

Each attempt gets it's own slot, you don't use one slot and mark how many replays. Same for reporting, each attempt is separate and completely unrelated to the others, with the exception of not getting the reward if replaying a succeeded scenario.

[Theryon Stormrune]

dragonvan wrote:

1. In the exemple of the p. 19, when the case "yes" for "Replaying?" is checked, should we write how many attempt was made by the player?

2. It a player player the scenario in many attempt in differents dates, does the coordinator indicated the info?

And to add on to what Andrew stated, if you run out of room on that chronicle sheet, just print another one for the players.

It should be noted that previously coordinators/VOs would just initial and note their Pathfinder Society number in the box on the right. We should probably also be putting the date as well as shown in the example chronicle sheet.

[dragonvan]

It was the exemple of 1-1C that is checked yes for replaying, but they were no previous slot of 1-1C.

It was important to me to note the date for 0-6D, me and another player made 10 attempts to pass it.

[Theryon Stormrune]

dragonvan wrote:

It was the exemple of 1-1C that is checked yes for replaying, but they were no previous slot of 1-1C.

Quote:

Sometimes examples aren't complete.

dragonvan wrote:

It was important to me to note the date for 0-6D, me and another player made 10 attempts to pass it.

As someone that runs these scenarios in my area, I just note the date on my reporting sheets. But it really is smarter to add the date to the initial box as well. I've had to back-track upgrades before and it is difficult if there have been replays.

[dragonvan]

I understand you, back-track upgrade was hard when you rush to go home and I was not in the mood, since it's the same scenario after some attempt.

Next thing : find more players in my area.

[Jason S]

Ron Lundeen wrote:

Put another way, are there conditions under which you can do either "trigger" action (gain a card feat, or complete an adventure) but not go up a tier?

Unless you complete all of the scenarios in an adventure, you have a choice if want to increase your tier.

I just finished both adventures 1 and 2, and believe me you WANT the rewards for completing each and every adventure. I don't think being gimped would be a wise move going forward, it's quite tough.

[Fozymandius]

So to make sure, the tiers would replace scenario rewards that are also skill/power/card feats. What about Adventure rewards?

For example, we made some progress in 0-3 the other night (0-3a, 0-3b, 03-c). Which would get us the skill, card, and power feat (and not the rewards for those scenarios? Even the extra deck upgrades?).

If we did 0-3d completing the adventure we get to choose a Role and a Power feat. Would we be getting BOTH power feats then? If not can we wait on spending the power feat till we get the role?

[Jason S]

You get skill, power, and card feats depending on how many scenarios you successfully complete in a tier (1, 2, and 4 respectively). You also get other rewards, such as loot, and more. These are written on the OP scenarios and adventure itself.

Completing 0-3a, 0-3b, 03-c, would not get you a card feat, you need 4 scenarios. And I'm not sure how the 0 tier is supported by OP, I didn't play them.

You don't get roles until completing adventure 3. No, you can't save up power feats while waiting to get a role. I'm not sure I understand your other questions.

[Fozymandius]

Ok, per the 0-3 Scenario.
For completing Scenario 0-3a: Each character gains a skill feat.
For completing Scenario 0-3b: Each character chooses weapon or spell and draws a random card of that type from the box.
For completing Scenario 0-3c: Each character gains a card feat.
For completing Scenario 0-3d: Each character chooses a type of boon other than loot and draws a random card of that type from the box. (Plus an RPG Reward)
For completing ALL SCENARIOS: Each character chooses a role card and gains a power feat.

Per the Tier system (And my apologies, I saw 3 instead of 4 when reading): A character gains one skill feat after
successfully completing one scenario, one power feat after
successfully completing two scenarios, and one card feat
after successfully completing four scenarios.

I guess my question is what rewards are we getting for completing all scenarios using the Tier system?

I can't imagine getting both (Which would then give 2 Skill Feats for completing 0-3a first). But doing the scenarios in order also gets the card feat for that tier early (after 3 scenarios instead of 4). There is also no Power Feat during that tier from scenarios, and I don't believe we'd get the reward of a Role for completing the whole adventure and then NOT get 1 of the powers from our shiny new role.

MY THOUGHTS ARE that if I do all 4 of those scenarios I will end up with:
1 Skill Feat, 1 Card Feat, 2 Power Feats plus a role, plus the weapon or spell, plus the any other Non Loot card.

EDIT:I hope this is an ok level of info? I thought being more specific on the info needed was better, but if scenario rewards shouldn't be posted I apologize and will remove.

[Theryon Stormrune]

In general, per tier, you get one skill feat, one power feat and one card feat.

You don't get two power feats as you thought.

There is a specific skill feat given as a reward from 0-4A, however.

The easiest thing is to remove all references to feat rewards from scenarios and adventures in Season 0. Except for the additional Skill feat from 0-4A. (You need to actually complete that one to gain the additional skill feat.)

[Fozymandius]

Theryon Stormrune wrote:

In general, per tier, you get one skill feat, one power feat and one card feat.

You don't get two power feats as you thought.

There is a specific skill feat given as a reward from 0-4A, however.

The easiest thing is to remove all references to feat rewards from scenarios and adventures in Season 0. Except for the additional Skill feat from 0-4A. (You need to actually complete that one to gain the additional skill feat.)

Even though the 2nd Power feat is an Adventure reward not a Scenario reward?

[Theryon Stormrune]

Correct.

Just because the reward is on the Adventure level doesn't mean you get it in addition to the tier advancement. (The initial rewards didn't include a second power feat, so you don't get an additional one by mixing tier advancement and the adventure reward.)

If you are going to play using tier advancement, remove all feat rewards from scenarios and adventures. (Except the one I mentioned above for 0-4A.)

[Fozymandius]

Well I don't believe there is an "If you are going to use Tier play" option technically. I have (and will continue) using the normal printed scenario rewards on 0-3 because it's not as though I am able to jump over to 1-3 and double dip at the moment.

But that nobody else seems to have an issue with going from (pre-Tier), ending 0-3 with 3 power feats, 1 of them for being able to be for your role vs (Tier) ending 0-3 with 3 feats and needing 2 more scenarios before you can get a power feat in your role tells me everybody is well past Tier 3.

It would be nice to see 2 things. First updating the adventures for the Tier system. Removing the feat rewards that are no longer there. Add a section up front that "This is a Tier 1 adventure. It can be played by Tier 1 or 2 characters. After completing [Reward system, and moving on to next tier description]."

Second an exception for Tier 3 so that the power feat you get comes at the end with the role. The role should be part of the tier system rewards anyways as some players (not I, surely not yourselves, but tell me you don't know them) would run 0-3 and 1-3 and as the Tier system only mentions Skill, Card, and Power feats would claim rights to BOTH ROLES.

[Theryon Stormrune]

Fozymandius, if you are planning on continuing to run Season 0 without adding in Season 1 scenarios, there is no reason that you have to convert over to the tier advancement system.

The scenarios from Season 0 are still valid and can be played as is. If, however, you plan on playing in both Season 0 and Season 1, you'll need to convert over to the tier system. The tier system is required for Season 1. It is required if you plan on mixing Season 0 and Season 1 scenarios. It is recommended if you have players that don't always show up and still wish to advance by playing scenarios without being tied to specific scenarios.

I have one group that is on Adventure 6 of Season 0. We did not convert over. There was no reason to at that point.

[Fozymandius]

A) I was going to be a lot more snarky here regarding the optional nature of the tier system. Unless you have a page number on it being optional in the community packet, it isn't. That's also why I said "technically" in my prior post. That's also why I said I didn't plan to use it for 0-3 in my prior post.

B) This is still going to be a factor for future players/characters that will jump between and therefore will use the tier system. Tier system at 3 means you get your power feat before your role, and have 1 less power feat available from your role. Do you really not see that as a point of concern?

[Theryon Stormrune]

Fozymandius wrote:

A) I was going to be a lot more snarky here regarding the optional nature of the tier system. Unless you have a page number on it being optional in the community packet, it isn't. That's also why I said "technically" in my prior post. That's also why I said I didn't plan to use it for 0-3 in my prior post.

B) This is still going to be a factor for future players/characters that will jump between and therefore will use the tier system. Tier system at 3 means you get your power feat before your role, and have 1 less power feat available from your role. Do you really not see that as a point of concern?

A) As a VO, we were part of the discussions about the new system. So the reasoning for the use of the tier advancement was for the reasons I stated above. Again, the current scenarios and the previous guide can still be used for Season 0. If you are going to be running Season 1, you are required to use the new guide and the tier advancement system.

Please note Appendix III:

Quote:

If you began a character during Season 0, and you wish to play that character outside Season of the Shackles, you’ll need to convert that character to the tier system.

It doesn't say it is required if you are just playing Season 0.

B) Yes, that is a concern. I don't like being required to put 3 power feats into the base character. And that's something we can bring up. Although 3 in the base character is not as bad as 4.

[Dave Riley]

3 in base is usual for standard play, though. Playing through the OP with the revised feat progression, we felt like we were getting a nice bonus with the extra feat going onto our role card.

[Fozymandius]

Theryon Stormrune wrote:

B) Yes, that is a concern. I don't like being required to put 3 power feats into the base character. And that's something we can bring up. Although 3 in the base character is not as bad as 4.

And that I had to reiterate my point several times before you admitted it's a concern and something to bring up is kind of why I'm hoping for acknowledgement from someone other than a VO (voice over? Vogon Orator? verfied organic?)

Because appendix III aside you still need to have started before and have access to downloads before. And hey, you can still get those 2 roles, roles aren't part of the tier system. Unless every Tier 3 adventure going forward is worded to make sure of that.

I would still like updated season 0 adventures for the tier system. Listing what tier it is, who can play, what the tier rewards are, and removing scenario rewards that are no longer rewarded under the tier system.

As Non Tier play is an option in season 0 it could be changed to something like (as an example for 0-3c "Any players not using the Tier option gain 1 card feat").

The tier system is a really good start ... but something specific for Tier 3 and some updates to scenarios would make it a lot better and a lot more user friendly.

[Theryon Stormrune]

Fozymandius wrote:

Theryon Stormrune wrote:

B) Yes, that is a concern. I don't like being required to put 3 power feats into the base character. And that's something we can bring up. Although 3 in the base character is not as bad as 4.

And that I had to reiterate my point several times before you admitted it's a concern and something to bring up is kind of why I'm hoping for acknowledgement from someone other than a VO (voice over? Vogon Orator? verfied organic?)

Because appendix III aside you still need to have started before and have access to downloads before. And hey, you can still get those 2 roles, roles aren't part of the tier system. Unless every Tier 3 adventure going forward is worded to make sure of that.

I would still like updated season 0 adventures for the tier system. Listing what tier it is, who can play, what the tier rewards are, and removing scenario rewards that are no longer rewarded under the tier system.

As Non Tier play is an option in season 0 it could be changed to something like (as an example for 0-3c "Any players not using the Tier option gain 1 card feat").

The tier system is a really good start ... but something specific for Tier 3 and some updates to scenarios would make it a lot better and a lot more user friendly.

VO = Venture Office; either a Venture Captain or Lieutenant that has been authorized by Paizo as a Pathfinder Society representative for a designated area/region.

Tanis and her underlings will be updating the Season 0 adventures and scenarios. She's been a bit busy with PaizoCon and Origins that just occurred. But in the meantime, Season 0 is still playable as is. The tier system is a product of the feedback that venture officers and retailers provided about Season 0 and some of the issues when it came to advancement. It removes the requirement of succeeding at specific scenarios and/or completing entire adventures to get feat rewards. It pushes it more towards the way advancement is done in PFS RPG. Just like with the previous season, there are going to be some bumps.

So when things like what you're bringing up with assigning your third power feat before unlocking your role, that's something that should be discussed.

I was just trying to point out that converting over to the tier system when playing Season 0 was not a requirement which you were insisting.

[zeroth_hour]

VOs are Venture Officers. They are regional coordinators for the Card Game (in the case of a ACG VL). Tanis has discussed with them things like the Guide to Organized Play before the season has started.

Tanis is working on getting updated Season 0 scenarios. "Who can play" is going to be the same (+/-1 tier). I believe Tanis has mentioned that tier rewards are going to be largely the same minus the feats, though how that translates into the Adventure rewards, I'm not sure. But it's actually okay, I think:

0-1: Card Feat
0-2: Loot access
0-3: Role + Power Feat
0-4: Power feat + Loot access
0-5: Power feat
0-6: Enora access

Other than the fact that you get 9 Power Feats/7 Card Feats when you're done, just removing all the feats from the Season 0 scenarios (not adventures) and running it that way shouldn't be a problem. You were getting 8 Power feats/6 Card Feats when you ran Season 0 normally anyway, so 1 more of each of those isn't really that disturbing.

Of course, you get into situations where you have just a deck upgrade for finishing a scenario, but that's the nature of things.

Con season is really busy, by the way.