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Ok, I’m trying to zero in on a character that will perform well and I will have fun playing through level 12 and even into the small number of high level scenarios when offered. This got brought up because I have my first PC almost at level 12. But when one of the GM’s started talking about running the Eyes of the Ten, I realized I really didn’t like the way my character had been performing well enough to be my only level umpteen character.
- Sorc is primarily specialized in summoning creatures. Has augment summoning and superior summons. Has sum mon II and sum mon V. Great and pretty amazingly powerful when useful. Secondary is debuff with persistent glittedust, grease, or flesh curdle (just recently got icy prison).
However, I finding the group would usually rather have the haste than wait for my summoned creatures to appear. Most fights are nearly over after the first round. So debuffs and summoned creatures haven’t been doing that much.
Also only being able to really keep 2 skills at relevant levels kinda sucks.
Don’t get me wrong, he has been successful and his buff spells have been very welcome. But his main ‘thing’ is summoning creatures and that has only been really useful about 4 times.
- Magus is built to trip and disarm with a whip and wand of true strike. He’s really great at it. So far he has only failed to trip or disarm when he rolls a 1. Magus is an int caster so he has better skills and a bit more versatility in his spell selection (though magi have a fairly monotone selection). But again the trip, disarm, or debuff has been seeming unnecessary most of the time. He gets initiative disarms the opponent. Then his allies kill it before it would have gotten to attack anyway. The disarm had no effect.
Again he’s been successful, but the main thing I built him for just hasn’t been all that needed most of the time. Especially in the 6-7 tier encounters lately.
- I have a Naga Aspirant built for melee with a Constrictor Snake. He has also performed pretty well as expected for any class with an animal companion. But he’s only been in one scenario that was at all nature-ish, has never encountered any reptiles for being friendly to animals kinds of things. Almost never seem to have enough info about what is to happen to enable picking the ideal spell. So goes around with a “these are pretty good general spells” type of list prepared.
- My inquisitor is frankly a mess that might not be recoverable. I will probably only play him when I don’t have anything else in tier.
All the others are too low level for any kind of evaluation.
Most of this seems to be a consequence of Society play that I should have expected.
To save game time, most of the time, opposition is a single target that gets dog piled by 6-7 PC’s. So fights tend to be really short. That makes buffs, debuffs, summoned, trips, disarms, and other conditions less useful.
The disjointed nearly random scenarios makes preplanning and following any kind of theme very difficult.
The random nature of the allies at the table makes playing as a coordinate team less likely. You don’t know what the other guys capabilities really are or what he is likely to do unless you ask lots of questions. Often there isn’t time for that level or investigating your partners.
Time constraints, content, and random allies make stealth/scouting a rare occurrence even if the capability is there.
I don’t want to come across as a whiner. If I wasn’t having lots of fun, I wouldn’t still be doing this. But it changes things somewhat from what I expected based on a history of playing home games. For example: In home games I most prefer buff/debuff casters, but that hasn't seemed as useful in PFS mostly due to the short encounters.
There are limited number of 12+ scenarios and they are only offered occasionally. I will probably only get one PC significantly into that bracket in my near gaming future. I would rather it not be a build whose niche very rarely comes up, even if the character was otherwise very successful.
So while I’m not want any spoilers, I’m kinda wanting some basic “you can expect to see X” advice for the high tiers and beyond level 12.
A) It seems like the smaller pool of characters should make it so you know them better and can work more as a team. Is that generally true?
B) Do the fights last enough longer that the conditions start having significant effects?
C) Does the ‘great out of doors’ environment occur enough that it is helpful to have a character that is good there? Or is it still the random dungeon, house, sewer, city, alternate dimension, mountain, cemetery, etc… that it has been in the lower levels?
D) Do aberrations, dragons, or undead come up often enough that a character specialized in one of them will feel useful?
E) Does scouting, scrying, or divinations start to become more useful?
F) Can you get enough information for meaningful pre-planning?
Things like that or any other advice you can give would be appreciated.
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When your Naga Aspirant gets high enough level, play him in #5-10: Where Mammoths Dare Not Tread.
For your Sorcerer, pick up a lesser metamagic rod of Quicken so you can summon and buff the party at the same time. You'll get plenty of gold from your first session of Eyes to buy one.
To eliminate the "dog pile" effect try to play 12+ material with a party of 5 PCs (or 4 PCs + Animal Companion). Eyes of the Ten can be a challenge, but it was designed for 4 characters. I played and GMed it with a party of 6 each time. Next time I'm capping the table at 5.
There's a Wiki somewhere that lists the regions that the scenarios take place in. I don't know if it's still up to date, but that might help you plan out where your characters adventure.
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F) That largely depends on whether you and your fellow characters make the effort to ask the right questions, gather information, or do research.
I have a bit of a problem with the VC supposedly withholding specific and very obviously useful information (like much of the location is underwater) unless you ask just the right question and make a good knowledge or gather information check. But that's a totally separate issue.
Well, we have tried almost every time with all the questions and knowledge checks we can think of.
Occasionally we learn quite a bit.
But most of the time (even with checks in the 30+ range) we get something closer to, "Well we don't really know but with the title of X you can probably guess that they might be casters." I can't remember exactly word for word, but that is very close to the only semi useful information we got for a recent scenario.
Great. So in a level 5-7 scenario we might encounter casters.
Afterward, the GM said the write-up expected you to ask some very specific questions about the guy and his family history. We couldn't figure out how that would have ever occurred to anyone to ask those questions.
Parts of it would have been ridiculously easy with a couple of scrolls. But there was no realistic way to know they would be useful with the info given. Unless of course you asked those specific questions about the history of his family.
A couple of players have stopped even bothering to ask questions because it uses up a half hour of game time and they don't feel like they ever get any useful information out of it.
I wouldn't go that far, I still ask and try to find things out because I occasionally have gotten something useful.
Regardless; when you played the high level scenarios, was there more pertinent information available than at lower levels?
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When your Naga Aspirant gets high enough level, play him in #5-10: Where Mammoths Dare Not Tread.
For your Sorcerer, pick up a lesser metamagic rod of Quicken so you can summon and buff the party at the same time. You'll get plenty of gold from your first session of Eyes to buy one.
To eliminate the "dog pile" effect try to play 12+ material with a party of 5 PCs (or 4 PCs + Animal Companion). Eyes of the Ten can be a challenge, but it was designed for 4 characters. I played and GMed it with a party of 6 each time. Next time I'm capping the table at 5.
There's a Wiki somewhere that lists the regions that the scenarios take place in. I don't know if it's still up to date, but that might help you plan out where your characters adventure.
Not sure I've seen #5-10 offered at our local, but I will ask for it in a couple of levels.
Our local almost always has full tables of 6 or even 7 players. I don't know if that is true when they run Eyes of the Ten. They don't do it on the regular game nights so I haven't seen it.
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This is a tough thread, OP
Much of anything that anyone can give you in terms of advice would need to factor in what your local PFS scene is like, both for in-person games and for any PbP you might be playing
The only thing I will touch on is this:
I took a look at your alias-characters and other than your Sorceror, you do not look like you have a character above level 6?
Is this true? If so, it might help to give a bit more focused advice
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This is a tough thread, OP
Much of anything that anyone can give you in terms of advice would need to factor in what your local PFS scene is like, both for in-person games and for any PbP you might be playing
The only thing I will touch on is this:
I took a look at your alias-characters and other than your Sorceror, you do not look like you have a character above level 6?
Is this true? If so, it might help to give a bit more focused advice
The magus is up to level 7, but hasn't been in a PbP recently. So I haven't updated his alias stats.
I have also run a handful of higher level scenarios with pregens that are waiting for the PC's to get high enough level. And I have a few GM credits at higher level also waiting for character advancement.
But I guess I'm mostly asking if the 'standards' that I am seeing in the 1-11 changes for 12+ scenarios.
I realize I may not get any useful information out of this but I thought I'd give it a try. As I said, my character style I've usually used for home games doesn't appear to be quite as applicable to PFS as I would have expected.
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It took us a year to get our Eyes of the Ten group together with a GM. The group composition changed during that time, and the GM wisely limited us to 5 players. But, you can get a group together to go through it, so your group can control its own composition.
The encounters are varied and I don't remember too much nature-themed outdoors situations. You have to be ready for dealing with people throughout.
My sorceress used a wide variety of spells, but one of the most effective tactics was a quickened buff (haste from a quicken metamagic rod, as Nefreet mentioned) and taxi service (through dimension door). The quicken rod allows for two spells in a round three times a day, which is a serious force multiplier. You can quicken a 1 round cast, so a summon monster 3 can happen, but that is probably not strong enough to serve at high level.
Don't forget your 12th level spell retrain for sorcerer, and you can retrain spells with Ultimate Campaign, so that will allow you to tailor your loadout. Also, don't forget Mnemonic Vestment and a collection of scrolls.
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I would need a microscope to underestimate the potency of 1d4+2 celestial eagles at seeker tiers.
But yeah, lesser quicken metamagic rods and staves of the master are game changers at seeker tier. Each of the full casters in my Eyes of the Ten party had a lesser quicken rod by the end of part 1.
(Then again, we played a very caster heavy party through Eyes.)
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If you're finding that your summoning sorcerer is not as potent as you like, Summon Neutral Monster is a stupidly excellent feat that expands your summon monster list with some very useful creatures, and lets you add a rather strong template to your summons.
There are going to be times where casting haste is not the best use of your standard action (though usually in a melee heavy party haste would be a very good choice). It might be a good idea to suggest that your companions purchase Boots of Speed if they haven't already purchased a boot item, as that will give them 10 charges of haste per day for those times when you can't cast it.
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Summon Neutral Monster is a wonderful feat. Never underestimate the power of 1d4+2 (empowered?) stirges!
1 con damage per round, so HP loss equal to HD, every other round?
To the OP: A lot of PFS, even at high levels, is what you make of it. Don't waste time on a character you dislike. If you're not having fun, you're being disserviced.
That said, Haste is nice, but eventually, if a charavter wants it consistently, hell find a way to get it himself. Thus, the likelihood of people groaning when your first action isn't haste tends to decrease as you go up in level.
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Summon Neutral Monster is a wonderful feat. Never underestimate the power of 1d4+2 (empowered?) stirges!1 con damage per round, so HP loss equal to HD, every other round?
Except its a potential of 1d4+2 of that every round that you have them out and all they need to do to trigger the CON damage is make a successful touch attack. And you can summon 1d4+2 of them for the cost of a 3rd level spell.
And it's also CON damage, so if the target goes to 0 CON they're dead. Their fortitude saves also suffer.
It's a good tactic.
EDIT: Also note that the stirge is grappling the target. There's some weirdness involved with it's size and I'm a bit fuzzy on the implications for exactly what that means for spellcasters. I also seem to remember a FAQ regarding stirge grapple, but I can't seem to find it.
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That said, Haste is nice, but eventually, if a charavter wants it consistently, hell find a way to get it himself. Thus, the likelihood of people groaning when your first action isn't haste tends to decrease as you go up in level.
Also if you're in a party that has a divine caster, Blessing of Fervor is arguably better for the party as a whole.
That might help you share the burden of your opening action.
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1 con damage per round, so HP loss equal to HD, every other round?
Except its a potential of 1d4+2 of that every round that you have them out and all they need to do to trigger the CON damage is make a successful touch attack. And you can summon 1d4+2 of them for the cost of a 3rd level spell.
And it's also CON damage, so if the target goes to 0 CON they're dead. Their fortitude saves also suffer.
It's a good tactic.
EDIT: Also note that the stirge is grappling the target. There's some weirdness involved with it's size and I'm a bit fuzzy on the implications for exactly what that means for spellcasters. I also seem to remember a FAQ regarding stirge grapple, but I can't seem to find it.
Blood Drain triggers at the end of its turn, for 1 Con damage. The other stirges attach attempts fail, because two creatures cannot grapple the same target?
Man, this really isn't the place. Apologies to the OP.
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Every thing depends on the table your playing at. A lot of the time it will depend on the group make up. I just retired my bard a few months ago. Many players are sad he is retired now, and many GM are rejoicing. As he was never the most powerful character at the table. He was the best at filling any roll the group needed. Along with one of the best buffers in my area. Not every one was thrilled I'd spend the first round buffing. Mostly the characters that where build to solo scenarios. However I did not let that stop me from playing a character I enjoyed playing. I Enjoyed it enough I started a second bard after he retired.
So play what you like even if their not the most powerful option. As long as they can fill the role. If they have problems not being effective in encounters then it's time to look at changing what your doing.
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Hi Lavode, I came across this thread and thought I'd weigh in a little.
1. Lavode's versatility is not to be under-stated. In the previous scenario, your summons helped us remove most of the runes with very little resource cost and your communal protection from fire meant that I could blast my fireballs without having to worry too much about who was caught inside. Your Bralani can heal, clear fog effects and still contribute in combat. And if I had not missed my guess of Krune's location, your air elementals would have been very critical in helping us find him. If the fight dragged out longer, we would have needed your summons badly. In fact, in the current scenario, I didn't memorise communnal protection from energy or haste because I am relying on you to provide that very valuable aid.
2. Summoning works best when you can get into a fight with a small army already summoned. Sometimes you need to spend resources to be able to do that. An invisible air or earth elemental can scout out a dungeon very quickly and let you know which rooms you want to have summons ready for. They may also set off a few traps to make things easier for you later. You party will also know when to pre-buff and will love you for it. At this level, spending 2 spell slots for a "map" of the dungeon is a very good deal, especially if you are a sorcerer with spell slots to spare.
3. The big cats with pounce and grab are incredible. Sic em on squishy caster for profit. Icy prison is also an incredible disable.
4. This was mentioned earlier, but at higher levels alot of enemies have high ACs but low touch ACs. I fully endorse the "chandelier of lantern archons" idea. Against the right enemies, it is extremely effective. Earth elementals and golems are good enemies to use them against because of the ability to bypass even DR/-. This point is I guess similar to point 3. PBP is especially good for summon-casters because you can take your time to look through your list and decide what to use. You may not be the best damager, but every now and then an enemy will come along that no one is prepared for. Chances are, you will be able to find a summon to solve the problem.
5. A half-elf with paragon surge has alot of versatility, and can use that to your advantage. Learning teleport is a big game-changer in PFS because you can tell people that instead of travelling to the mission location, you can tell them to rest for the night and let you teleport them the next day. Meanwhile, you can cast paragon surge and see what hour/lvl duration buffs you can cast whilst they sleep (your ring of sustenance means that you can have alot of the duration available the next day and in fact I think I will get one myself at the end of our current scenario). Heightened awareness, false life, Greater magic weapon and ablative armor are all good options. Effectively, you trade 1 5th level spell slot (or maybe two if you miss your location, but the odds are usually decent enough to be worth the gamble) for several buffs for the first few hours of the day, and also bypass travelling hazards. When you are the fastest means of transport the party has, most of the time YOU control when the scenario really starts, and you can make sure that the party has a good number of buffs beforehand.
I would suggest that you take Lavode through level 11 on the slow track and see how he fares in The Frozen Stars when Ralph is not in the party. I think the party already appreciates your support immensely, and when he becomes the only full-caster in the party, your ability to solve problems with summons and paragon surge will be almost critical in deciding whether the party succeeds or fails.
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Oh I agree with much of that. Especially on these last 2 PbP scenarios. I loved being able to wreck 4 of the runes for very little cost. And us snagging his equipment was just hilarious.
But these last 2 PbP scenarios have been the only 2 since around 6th level were I really felt like a major contributor. The 2 scenarios at Cincycon the previous weekend, almost his only contribution was communal protection from energy fire and haste. That was just kinda boring.
Yes, he did try other stuff. But little of it seemed to make a difference. Plus in FtF gaming at PFS, the table usually does not want me to 'flood the field' with creatures. Twice it has been requested, but it really slows down the game when I am trying to run a couple dozen lantern archons or earth elementals.
That is a nice difference for PbP, no one cares if it takes me 20 minutes to type in the actions for a pile-o-monsters.
He's already got a normal progression at level 11, so I can't switch to slow now.
Like I said, I don't hate him and have been having fun. But he hasn't been able to 'do his thing' all that often.
I thought Eyes of the Ten was the only thing after level 11. But someone told me there is now other stuff for high level. So maybe I will be willing to go ahead and run Lavode at 12+.
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I thought Eyes of the Ten was the only thing after level 11. But someone told me there is now other stuff for high level. So maybe I will be willing to go ahead and run Lavode at 12+.
There is now quite a bit of high level play beyond level 11, including one path all the way to 20.
Coincidentally the character I want to take down that path is my summoning Druid.
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At only 5K each there is no need to have only one. I think our oracle had three or four that he switched out of after he had used the one in question.
Also, don't forget Mnemonic Vestment and a collection of scrolls.
And don't forget the option, from the ACG, of Spell Lattices.
A couple of bandoleers with 6 in each can cover a lot of spell options at the ready, not counting any additional ones in other containers.
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My summoner wizard wrecks things. If you think summoner are under powered, than you need to go and learn how to summon the correct creatures.
Never even came close to saying a summoner is underpowered. I said by the time my sorcerer summons a creature the fight is nearly over or so close to it that my summoned creature wasn't really needed, so the contribution is minor.
There have been exactly 4 encounters over his whole career up to level 11 where my summoned creatures made a huge difference, like tipping the balance from losing to winning. There were 2 others where it could have made a difference (one I failed vs idiocy on the surprise round the other we all thought would be an easy encounter settled diplomatically so we didn't pull out the big guns until too late).
There have been quite a few others where the summoned creatures were helpful and convenient, but a lot of other things would have been just as good or we would have still won if I had done nothing at all.
Plus, like a lot of people know, in FtF games; summoning very much stuff can start to garner a reputation as one of 'those guys' that slow and/or hog the game. I don't want that.
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5. A half-elf with paragon surge has alot of versatility, and can use that to your advantage. ... Meanwhile, you can cast paragon surge and see what hour/lvl duration buffs you can cast whilst they sleep (your ring of sustenance means that you can have alot of the duration available the next day and in fact I think I will get one myself at the end of our current scenario). Heightened awareness, false life, Greater magic weapon and ablative armor are all good options. Effectively, you trade 1 5th level spell slot (or maybe two if you miss your location, but the odds are usually decent enough to be worth the gamble) for several buffs for the first few hours of the day, and also bypass travelling hazards. ...
I hate to admit using Paragon Surge the day before for long term buffs never occurred to me. That bugs me, because it is the kind of tricky thing I usually like to figure out.
I have only used it for the situations where 'The only solution we can think of requires this spell - well now I have it' type of thing.I will make a list of likely long term spells and try to remember to apply this lesson. I might even by a rod of extend. Thanks muchly!
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I would consider training out of augment/superior summoning and taking feats to further enhance battlefield control. I might even be tempted to train out of haste to stop people whining about you not casting it first.Frankly dropping something like persistent glitterdust or black tentacles as your first action is going to have a far greater impact on most combat encounters in many cases.
As far as the skills thing goes you can look at investing in spells which might replace them. Fly, air bubble, spider climb, monkey fish and many others deal with whole swathes of exploration issues. Clairvoyance, invisibility or arcane eye can make for better scouting than many rogues. Elemental Body gives you earth glide. The list of options is really endless and you can access many of them.
I highly recommend buying a lot of level 1 pages of spell knowledge, they are dirt cheap and add enormous versatility.
I don't know what race you are but if you are human, half elf or half orc have you been taking the extra spells known?
Persistent glitterdust, grease, and spiked pit have been stables for me. But it was intended to be a secondary option not my primary. I have a hard time changing what the character was always meant to be used for. I am more likely to just start a new character.
I have been considering a bunch of 1st level pages of spell knowledge instead of a +6 headband after the current scenario. (He currently has 2 of them.)
Half-elf. I have been taking extra spells known since finding out it is an option. Clear back when I first started the character it wasn't allowed for half-elves. Then I didn't find out about the new ruling until I think level 8. I took skill ranks up until then.
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The Spell Lattice if for Arcanists, they do nothing for Sorcerers. Sorcerers want the Page of Spell Knowledge.At only 5K each there is no need to have only one. I think our oracle had three or four that he switched out of after he had used the one in question.
Also, don't forget Mnemonic Vestment and a collection of scrolls.And don't forget the option, from the ACG, of Spell Lattices.
A couple of bandoleers with 6 in each can cover a lot of spell options at the ready, not counting any additional ones in other containers.
Might want to reread it without the preconceptions.
It works for spontaneous casters.
It contains additional language to make sure that it also works for Arcanists, since they are not, fully, spontaneous casters.
Price varies
1st-level 1,000 GP; 2nd-level 4,000 GP; 3rd-level 9,000 GP; 4th-level 16,000 GP; 5th-level 25,000 GP; 6th-level 36,000 GP; 7th-level 49,000 GP; 8th-level 64,000 GP; 9th-level 81,000 GP
Slotnone; CL 17th; Weight 1 lb.; Aura varies (see text)
A spell lattice is a block of transparent crystal, internally etched with a three-dimensional representation of a spell. This spell is chosen when the item is created (the contained spell determines the school of the lattice's aura). When a spell lattice is wielded by a spontaneous spellcaster who has the spell contained within it on her class spell list, she can use her spell slots to cast that spell as if it were one of her spells known. When an arcanist holds a spell lattice, as long as she has the contained spell on her class spell list, she can use her spell slots to cast that spell as if it were one of her spells currently prepared.
A spellcaster who uses a spellbook or formula book can copy the spell from a spell lattice as if it were a scroll. Doing so expends the spell from the spell lattice.
CONSTRUCTION REQUIREMENTSCost varies; 1st-level 500 GP; 2nd-level 2,000 GP; 3rd-level 4,500 GP; 4th-level 8,000 GP; 5th-level 12,500 GP; 6th-level 18,000 GP; 7th-level 24,500 GP; 8th-level 32,000 GP; 9th-level 40,500 GP
Craft Wondrous Item, Scribe Scroll, creator must be able to cast the spell placed in the spell lattice
So, it has language (bolded above) for standard spontaneous casters, Bard, Sorcerer, Oracle, etc.
It also contains extra language (italicized above) to make sure it also works for the Arcanist, since they don't work off of spells known, but spells prepared, like a Wizard or Cleric.So, yes, a Sorcerer, as well as an Arcanist, can use a bandoleer of spell lattices to increase their spellcasting options beyond what they already have as spells known.
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Summoning 1d3+1 Colossal-sized T-Rexes is one reason why I want my Saurian Shaman to be the character I take to level 20 ^^.
Played a summoner in a home game AP, in which had 5 summoned T-Rexes out. They all missed in round 1 and yje one that hit in 2 coundnt hold on to the creature. It was kind of scary to see them fail.
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So they do, I never noticed that before. However, they cost the same as the Page of Spell Knowledge but have to be wielded (which Pages don't) so I have to wonder why you would want to use them if you didn't have to?
Because I think they have changed since they were originally written up. I could have sworn they had some other requirements before they worked, like a Spellcraft check or some such. Maybe that is the Ring of Spell Knowledge, or the Mnemonic Vestments.
Or, maybe, I forgot about the Pages.
The Ring requires a Spellcraft check to store a spell. Considering it is far more versatile then Pages, that's fine.
==Aelryinth