Regional Venture-Coordinator, Baltic
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There are a lot of threads already.
A TPK is actually not that likely. One or two character deaths are.
It is highly unlikely I will ever run this part of the module for PFS. My advice: Run something else.
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Passing the buck helps no one. Especially when the level 1 folks could be new players decided whether they want to join PFS or not.
Best option: don't run it.
If you have to, there are options. Besides all of the above, recognize that the creature in question is not a mindless undead, but is intelligent, evil, and has been locked up alone for a long time. They probably want to savor this first chance to kill people in a long time, maybe even talking to the PCs rather than just leaping to the attack. Maybe it intimidates them first, because it is so (over)confident. That, plus some well-prepared characters, and a good dose of luck, can help prevent a TPK. You'll still likely lose someone, though.
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I highly recommend having them engage with Thistletop as much as time allows. Not only does it have a potential for them to get a hint, but it also makes it clear that retreat back to town is a valid option.
There is no time limit, so encouraging, or at least making it clear that, returning to town is an option helps a lot.
I won't run the game for brand new first levels (unless they "force me" - that can have neither wand nor magic weapon oil.
When they gather their party - one can ask casually if they each have some way to heal themselves hopefully a cure wand (positive energy is a great weapon in the game). Also I usually ask if they are prepared for swarms - in case one appears -though the weapons can also be used against a different foe inside, effectively.
Quite often when I've seen the "room of doom" run - the critters are already on their feet and waiting. However the text says "They stir and rise to their feet when any living creature comes within 20 feet of them." so a good perception, spell choice, or the odd person that shoots all dead bodies with ranged touch spell - just in case (I have met or played a lot of them). Can mean the baddies might not even get within melee range.
Recently when I've run - it has been the "crickets" that have killed the most - though the last time it was 4 animal companions (it was a 4 druid party).
I also encourage people to play with animal companions and eidolons - the former can take a hit. After all they get a total rebuild at 2nd level.
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Yes, indeed, make sure you follow the setup for that encounter. Having to stand up is the only action two of those enemies can take in their first turn, and, if your players are bright enough not to get too close, even the intelligent one may not be able to get an attack in, if he has to stand up and then do more than a 5' step.
Also, and bear this in mind, if the party has someone who has a decent Disable Device check, those two one-way doors, aren't. Their Disable DC to open is only a 20, so even a first level PC can unlock them, and running the level/areas backwards makes for some interesting differences in the encounters.
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When I ran this for my group, we had 4 people at the time (2 people were level 2). At the room with the negative levels, the players just started shooting randomly at things, when the baddie with negative levels started hitting people, people started running around scared still shooting randomly with the negative level person being the target a little bit more often. First player to die did so while standing his ground at the entrance and quickly rejoined the fight 2 rounds later blocking the exit for most of the party.
The only person to survive was a first time player that ran straight towards that exit and never turned back because I never saw him again. In fact I still have his chronicle sheet.
I blame poor tactics. It was a hard fight, but people panicked and screwed things up.
I would strongly recommend having a warning in place at the start about this being a difficult dungeon, specially for new players.
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I'm of the opinion that it's not your job to avoid TPK's. It's the players' jobs to do that. Your job is to present the scenario/module as written to the best of your ability in the interest of everyone having fun. It's the players' jobs to design their characters and take what steps are necessary to overcome challenges set before them in the interest of having fun. It's the author's job to tune encounters to provide challenges that are appropriate and not overwhelming (unless the latter is explicitly the goal, which it feels like sometimes in Thornkeep.)
That said, I wouldn't expect something like mindless undead to perform brilliant tactical maneuvers in enclosed spaces so as to maximize attack opportunities amongst their allies while minimizing inbound damage. I also wouldn't expect mindful creatures to pound downed opponents into a bloody smear provided standing foes are near unless they have exceedingly good reason to do so. The <redacted> in Thornkeep is mindful, so it's clever enough to avoid OA's and flank with its dimmer minded minions, and making use of its innate ability is in no way poor form. It's also one of three actually dangerous encounters in the module (the others being the incorporeal foe and the jumpy bugs), one of the 'bosses' if you will.
tl;dr: Run as written. Blame the author, not the GM.
The scenario contains a monster that WILL one shot any level 1 character it hits. Once. Level 1 characters CAN"T be built with an acceptale chance of surviving that thing.
Do not run this for level 1s. Run anything else.
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Of course, new first level players will have done none of that. Thornkeep is meant to be a challenge to experienced players - it is NOT an intro scenario. If you have a bunch of folks who routinely shrug off regular sceanrios and are up for the challenge, great. Do not make this someone's first PFS experience, or it will likely be their last.
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...Do not run this for level 1s. Run anything else.
You think it is bad in regular - in a couple weeks I'll be running it Core for all 1st level characters - all re-players - most of them not brand new as they have a first steps under their belt.
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They don't have a rogue, - which is good because from my experience if they hit the "dark room" before the "room of doom" - it is as bad as it can get - since the baddie in the dark room attacks as they leave the room, and that usually forces them forward and catches them between the frying pan and the fire.
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stand your point and nominally agree that a <redacted> is a terrible thing to spring on a level 1 party, there are ways to build to mitigate the threat the beastie poses.
Sure. By knowing its there and metagaming. AKA, cheat.
Once you accept it's a game of rocket tag
That realization only comes after the first corpse.
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I have no suggestions for avoiding a TPK beyond not recommending this adventure for PFS and doubly so if 1st level characters are involved (and yet again if there are any new players).
If it has to be run though I recommend not rushing the adventure, know the players (again, maybe recommend them to other games if they aren't ready for this sort of adventure), deliver information in the adventure about the creature to emphasize the threat the creature poses without outright telling players that it is a leveling draining undead.
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Of course, new first level players will have done none of that. Thornkeep is meant to be a challenge to experienced players - it is NOT an intro scenario. If you have a bunch of folks who routinely shrug off regular sceanrios and are up for the challenge, great. Do not make this someone's first PFS experience, or it will likely be their last.
I have to agree with this, wholeheartedly. That being said, it is very survivable. I have run The Accursed Halls three times, I think, and played it once. In that time I saw one death... it happened to have been a first level character, and against the <redacted>. I do suggest playing this with 2nd level characters, or at least 1st level characters with an chronicle or two under their belts.
I will also agree that the biggest mistake GMs could make is to have <redacted> and his <redacted> cohorts standing at the start. Their starting position is one that balances the difficulty.
When I played, the GM made that mistake... and my paladin was up in front. Luckily for him, he had used his shining wayfinder in the room prior against the <redacted>, and had banded armor and shield, so was just missed. Once he declared his Smite Evil, there was no way that the critter was going to hit, except on a nat-20.
In fact, that's the key... the <redacted>, while really nasty, only has a +4 to hit, and has to stand up. If the party closes on him before he can stand, he either provokes an AoO, or is at a net +0 to hit.
Wait... this is the GM forum... why are we redacting things?
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That realization only comes after the first corpse.Or a succesful knowledge (religion) check. (Even the realisation that it's two different types of creatures can help with focussing fire).
"Those two are common zombies, but the other thing you don't know."
True, it is what, a DC13 Knowledge Religion check? A team that has a rounded set of knowledge skills should be able to pull that off.
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Regional Venture-Coordinator, Baltic
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True, it is what, a DC13 Knowledge Religion check? A team that has a rounded set of knowledge skills should be able to pull that off.That realization only comes after the first corpse.Or a succesful knowledge (religion) check. (Even the realisation that it's two different types of creatures can help with focussing fire).
"Those two are common zombies, but the other thing you don't know."
11 for the pair and 13 for the special indeed. With a 13 you can even tell of its special ability. Also the difference between the intelligence of the one vs the mindlessness of the other two could be called out by the GM even without the proper knowledge skills.
vs
The flesh of this walking corpse is rotting and putrid, its body skeletal in places and its eye sockets glowing with red light.
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New players should have a hope of survival. In this room, with 1st level characters (likely pre-gens, if it's at a con), they can only survive if the GM rolls poorly. Or, if they all immediately attack the one guy and bring it down before it acts, which is not really the best introduction to what the Society is about, either.
This is a great adventure for PFS for those who want the challenge. Like Bonekeep. In fact, it's harder than Bonekeep in some ways. But it should be used like Bonekeep, with appropriate warnings and by people signing up to play that specific scenario, and not "whatever level-1 PFS game is on when I'm free", which is often what happens at level-1 events at a con.
I've GMed this a couple of times. No one died. Players can see and identify them well before combat is initiated. They don't get up until a living thing gets within 20'. This gives players a chance to rocket tag them. A cure light wounds wand is very useful for the dark room for sure. I wouldn't recommend running this for 0 xp characters played by raw recruits to PFS. Each time I GMed it I made sure my players knew that it was a dangerous sweep and clear mission that should be approached with a very tactical mindset. Nothing stopping players from declaring initiative at a door before opening it after all.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Running this for pfs , likely in a timeslot, means its unlikely you'll be doing anything in town. I don't have the scenario (refused to buy it after a debacle) but how would heraldry tell you redacted rather than your run of the mill other redacted?
A time slot, yes, but an 8-hour one, because each level of Thornkeep is a module. (I wouldn't want to try running The Harrowing in four hours, either.) There should be plenty of time to meet the town of Thornkeep, and it's important to do so. Not only are there clues about what's going on, but there are also resources. (The mages have hints about the unpassable door, and there's a cleric who's willing to provide discount healing.)
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Regional Venture-Coordinator, Baltic
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actually, I would think that Zombies would only be a Kn check 6. "Common" monsters (the example is goblins) would be 5+CR. This would mean even the average Jo, with formal training (no Kn-Religion) would be able to recognize a Zombie ("they walk slow, and moan BRAINS").
True. With 4+ PCs it would be almost impossible not to identify the zombies as zombies.
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@GM Lamplighter: At +4, that <redacted> doesn't hit very well against most of the martials in the pregens, needing to beat a 10 or even higher to even hit. And that's when it is standing. I have run this level something like 6 times, and it has hit someone once in all those runs. In some of the runs, it never got an attack off, between standing and having to move toward the nearest target..
@nosig: It can vary widely. I have done runs in 4 hours, and other runs over 8 hours. It depends on the PCs and tactics.I have seen situations where the goblin archers are a serious hindrance, and others where the party just tromps the whole level easily.