What is meant by 'using' a poison

[ojamojallo]

The concentrate poison discovery of the alchemist states:

"The alchemist can combine two doses of the same poison to increase their effects. This requires two doses of the poison and 1 minute of concentration. When completed, the alchemist has one dose of poison. The poison’s frequency is extended by 50% and the save DC increases by +2. This poison must be used within 1 hour of its creation or it is ruined."

So my question is: what is meant by 'using' a poison? As far as I know there are four possibilities
The point of using is either:
- the point where you put it on a weapon, or in a drink or whatever
- the point where the poison enters the body
- the point where the subject makes it's first save (this is different from the previous point, as some poisons have an onset time)
- the point where the poison has run it's course

So which is it? And if it is one of latter two, how would it work with a poison with an onset time of more than a few minutes, like king's sleep?

[Cuuniyevo]

I would rule that it is considered to be used at the point it enters the body. If it doesn't enter the body in time, it expires and does nothing. It could use a little clarification but I think that's RAI.

[Samasboy1]

I would say it is the point at which you can't recover it for later use.

So applying the poison to a weapon is "used," putting it into a drink is "used," etc.

Just my 2 c.

[Bronnwynn]

Cuuniyevo wrote:

I would rule that it is considered to be used at the point it enters the body. If it doesn't enter the body in time, it expires and does nothing. It could use a little clarification but I think that's RAI.

I'd agree with this, but I wouldn't argue too much with Samas' interpretation.

[ojamojallo]

But if you use samas interpretation, you could simply put it on a weapon and then save the weapon for later. I'm guessing it's when poison enters the body.

[Joesi]

Yeah it would have to mean enter the body otherwise the time limit is pretty much meaningless. Otherwise even for the poisoning food, One could poison a liquid/food then put that liquid/food in the food you want to poison.

In my opinion the time limit seems unnecessary for the discovery to be balanced though. I'd ask the GM if the time limit could either be waived, or extended to 24 hours. In my opinion the discovery is to weak with this time limit

[Joesi]

I should also note that my point about it being balanced was assuming it is not possible to stack multiple times, as that's how I would rule it, since it doesn't state that it's possible to do.

Oh yeah, also forgot to discuss this minor point:

ojamojallo wrote:

the point where the subject makes it's first save (this is different from the previous point, as some poisons have an onset time)

No. Creatures always make a saving throw as soon as a poison enters the body regardless of any onset time. If It has an onset time it just means it won't deal it's effect the same turn that the creature contracted it.

In case you're misinformed about other poison rules (or rather to ensure you aren't), I suggest reading
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/afflictions/poison
http://paizo.com/paizo/blog/v5748dyo5lc12

[ojamojallo]

I guess i was misinformed then, thanks for pointing it out.

I'm playing with the rule that it Can be stacked, however, only poisons with the same concentration can be stacked. Like 16 poisons for 8 doses of once concentrated poison, 8 form 4, ect