A question about the champion's finesse feature of the Daring Champion

[OldRolero]

Hi, a friend of mine wants to play a cavalier with the daring champion archetype, and we have a problem with his very first ability: the champion's finesse.

It states: At 1st level, a daring champion gains the benefits of the Weapon Finesse feat with light or one-handed piercing melee weapons, and he can use Charisma in place of Intelligence for the purpose of combat feats prerequisites. A daring champion also counts as having the Weapon Finesse feat for the purpose of meeting feat requirements.

Our conflict here, is that we don't agree in this part light or one-handed piercing. Our DM understands that for both light or one handed, the weapon has to be a piercieng one, but my pal argue that it only refers to the one handed, and that light ones can be of any type, like a dagger.

And I, quite frankly, not entirely sure myself.

So, could anyone clarify this or gives us a faq that can do so?

[dragonhunterq]

It only applies to piercing weapons that are light or one handed. If you want finesses with light slashing weapons then you need the weapon finesse feat. I believe (but I'm not an expert) that it would need a comma - with light, or one-handed piercing - to enable all light weapons to be finessable.

[Saldiven]

Your friend's interpretation, grammatically, would have been worded "...with light weapons or one-handed piercing weapons."

"light or one-handed" modifies "piercing weapons."

[kestral287]

It can be read either way (a comma is not needed), but the common interpretation is "light piercing weapons or one-handed piercing weapons". And incidentally, the dagger is piercing.

That said, what light weapon is he wanting to use it with? He's gimping himself by touching literally any of them.

[Blakmane]

Dragonhunterq is correct I believe. A comma would be necessary for the 'all light weapons' interpretation.

As an aside, a dagger is a piercing weapon and so is finessable via this ability.

[Saldiven]

Blakmane wrote:

Dragonhunterq is correct I believe. A comma would be necessary for the 'all light weapons' interpretation.

A comma there would be a comma splice (the incorrect insertion of a comma where it has no business being). It wouldn't change the meaning of the sentence; it would just be a grammatical error.

[OldRolero]

Well, it seems there is a consensus about the light weapon also having to be a piercing one for the skill to work.

Incidentally, I used the dagger as an example on a whim, because it also counts as a slashing weapon (sorry for the confusion), and he was algo interesed to see if this could work for a scorpion whip, hence, the needed clarification.

Nevertheless, if anyone can set this agreement in stone with an official ruling quoted somewhere else, it would be much appreciated.

[Kalindlara]

If he wants to use a scorpion whip, he might want Slashing Grace, which will solve the problem entirely (once he has it).

[mplindustries]

Kalindlara wrote:

If he wants to use a scorpion whip, he might want Slashing Grace, which will solve the problem entirely (once he has it).

Unfortunately, for whatever strange reason, Slashing Grace only works on one-handed slashing weapons and the Scorpion Whip is a light weapon. However, Slashing Grace does work for the regular Whip.

[Kalindlara]

Aargh... sleepy girl. Sorry. :)

[Ventnor]

The scorpion whip makes no sense.

[kestral287]

OldRolero wrote:

Well, it seems there is a consensus about the light weapon also having to be a piercing one for the skill to work.

Incidentally, I used the dagger as an example on a whim, because it also counts as a slashing weapon (sorry for the confusion), and he was algo interesed to see if this could work for a scorpion whip, hence, the needed clarification.

Nevertheless, if anyone can set this agreement in stone with an official ruling quoted somewhere else, it would be much appreciated.

There isn't one.

As noted, he's gimping himself massively by using a Scorpion Whip.

He wants Whip Mastery anyway (which will cover the one edge Scorpion Whips have), so all he's doing is screwing himself out of Slashing Grace, and thus tying the inevitable Dex-to-Damage target to an upward scaling cost in the Agile weapon property instead of a fixed cost that Slashing Grace is.

[OldRolero]

He got interested because I am writting a guide on whip specialists, and wanted to play one, but having "donaire" kinda like Pirates of the Caribbean or The Musketeers, and is looking to build a swashbuckler or a cavalier with the daring champion archetype.

But I had not read in deep the slashing grace feat, and you are right, a regular whip works with the finesse feature of both classes. So, thanks for the tip.

[Gisher]

Scorpion Whips just got a wee bit better now that Slashing Grace works with light slashing weapons.

On the other hand, Daring Champion just got a wee bit worse.