Shield Champion ricochet

[That Crazy Alchemist]

The Brawler Archetype Shield Champion allows for some pretty iconic Captain America style moves.

Under the "Returning Shield" ability of this archetype it states:
"If a shield champion has additional attacks from a high base attack bonus, these additional attacks can be ricochets off an earlier target. The distance to each additional target adds to the total range of the shield, and range penalties apply, but there are no additional penalties for attacking in this manner."
Since the shield is actually ricocheting off targets rather than returning to you for each throw, could you ricochet the shield around cover doing this?
Or even bullrush (Shield Slam) with it from a different direction, perhaps bullrushing him to the side and out of cover by doing this?

So say there is an enemy behind a chest-high wall firing a crossbow at you, and you have 2 iterative attacks. Could you throw the shield at a wall off to the side, literally attacking the wall section with your first attack and then ricochet it off to hit the enemy around his cover with your second attack to bypass the cover?

X B - - -
C C C / X
X X / X X
X / X X X
G X X X X

B= Baddy
G = Goodie
/ or - = Path of shield
C = Cover

PS - I am aware of the Equipment Trick (Shield) feat that does something very similar, but that is not the topic of this thread.

[Komoda]

Yes, but not until level 17.

ACG p 87 wrote:

At 17th level, by ricocheting her shield off a nearby surface before hitting your intended target, she can treat that surface

as the origin square of the attack to determine whether the target is f lanked and whether the target gains a cover bonus to its AC.

[That Crazy Alchemist]

Bah, missed that little footnote. Thanks.

[Spike_Rs]

@Komoda, but isn't that ability just so you can make that hit surface the new origin square of the attack?

But could you do so if you had three iterative attacks? a to b to c when there is blocking material between A & C but not between A & B and B & C?

I am guessing not because line of sight issues? or that the person would still get cover but you could still hit them? but the OP's Q made me think about it.

[Komoda]

I think that the whole point of the 17th level ability is to attack from a different angle. I would not allow you to do so at earlier levels.

[TGMaxMaxer]

The point of the 17th level ability is to remove the penalties for cover, or to take advantage of flanking bonuses.

You can absolutely do it earlier, per the Returning Shield ability, but you take cover penalties and the range penalties from your starting point to the first bounce and then to the new target.

The 17th level ability lets you gain flanking bonuses, and remove cover penalties, for something you could already do, as well as allowing ranged attacks vs creatures with total concealment so long as you have the 50% miss chance.

In your example, you could target the wall (AC 5 or whatever) with the first attack, and the enemy with the second, so long as you still take the cover penalty (should be -4 for the wall) and the range penalty for the whole distance from you to wall and wall to enemy on the second bounce (which if I'm counting correctly on that should be 50ft.)

So, attack wall at AC 5 with a 30ft range penalty (-2, 20ft range with far shot and 2nd increment) and then attack enemy AC with -4 for cover from the wall and -4 range penalty for 3rd increment 50ft range.

[Spike_Rs]

Yeah, TGMaxMaxer, I just looked at the class ability.

The issue I had is if it is a full wall blocking line of sight. I guess the issue stems from how are you directing the ricochets. Actually.... I just answered my own question in my head while typing this. lol. Obviously, you have to be able to "see" somewhat, line of sight, the target (intended square/5foot box for an invisible target.) Similar to the Ricochet Shot grit feat for Gunslingers.

I apologize on that. lol

[zza ni]

you don't really have to see the target. if you know it's there (by other means such as termor sense\scent\some1 else seeing it and telling you etc) you can take the shot and the miss chance of 50% of not seeing it.

then again if you also pick up(or use the temp feat agbility of a braweler) the perfect style feat and the following wind feat (need also quick draw, but a shield champion should have that on the basis that shields are also it's weapons).. then you can add seeking to the shot and even ignore the miss chance ;)

[Spike_Rs]

zza ni wrote:

you don't really have to see the target. if you know it's there (by other means such as termor sense\scent\some1 else seeing it and telling you etc) you can take the shot and the miss chance of 50% of not seeing it.

then again if you also pick up(or use the temp feat agbility of a braweler) the perfect style feat and the following wind feat (need also quick draw, but a shield champion should have that on the basis that shields are also it's weapons).. then you can add seeking to the shot and even ignore the miss chance ;)

True. I guess what I should have said is "knowing target is there or sense that spot" as several "sensing" abilities/feats and someone telling you, allow you to know the target is there.

Quickdraw? Where we're going we don't need... Quickdraw.
That's why you have the Throwing Shield equipment upgrade ;{D>