| Eigengrau |
I'm running Curse of the Riven Sky for my group.
There's an encounter in a flying ship made for a Cloud Giant, and some severe wind effects from a ripped open portal in the sky. It details the effects and strength of the wind of course but the problem I'm worrying about is the Druids constant ability to change shape into an Air Elemental.
The Druid then uses the Whirlwind ability to destroy things. What happens to an Air Elemental in severe hurricane like winds? Can they still turn into a Whirlwind and just grab up everybody? I know I've got to give all the enemies in this encounter a means to fly to at least mitigate some damage & loss of minions due to the whirlwinding and falling off the ship.
What can be done to counter Whirlwind attacks from an Air Elemental?
Taenia
|
First of all, make sure you are up to date on how Whirlwind functions as per Bestiary 4.
This means that the druid can only pick up creatures 1 size smaller then their elemental body spell. For 9 - 11th level character this means a large elemental, so they can pick up medium creatures only.
Powerful Shape expands this to large, but anything huge or larger will be immune to being picked up by the Druid.
Volume may also be a concern, make sure all the targets can fit in the shape and size of the whirlwind.
Nothing prevents creature from attacking a whirlwind, other than the -2 to attack from being inside. Spellcasting is not a major concern either as casters only have to make a DC 15 + Spell level check.
The DC for the ability is based on the spell. Not the stats of the Air Elemental.
I would suggest anything in the whirlwind just full attack the druid until it drops them.
| DM_Blake |
First, why counter it?
This druid has a class ability that is usually useful, but in this case, very useful. How many times can he dominate an encounter as an air elemental? Why not let him shine and feel good about how he handled that encounter?
Wait, I just re-read your post. They're fighting cloud giants? Then you've got nothing to worry about - the druid/elemental can only use whirlwind on creatures smaller than the air elemental, and cloud giants are Huge so the druid will need to be Colossal to grab them. There are no Colossal air elementals, to my knowledge.
Are there other enemies, smaller ones that can be affected by whirlwind?
I would suggest having such enemies be spread far apart with ranged attacks (magical ones that work in a hurricane). You already mentioned flight so they cannot simply be hauled off in a whrlwind and dropped. If they can fly, they can also spread out in 3 dimensions. Your druid will possibly go after one, but they'll all be far enough apart to force him to move (a lot) to get to each of them. Even if he does get them, their flight means they can escape and cannot be tossed overboard to fall to their deaths.
Yes, the druid can still turn into an air elemental and yes, it can still whirlwind in a hurricane, but be aware of the wind effects and how that can make it very difficult to fly, and can even blow away the characters (not just the druid). That druid/air elemental will take a -12 on his fly checks; just how good is his Fly skill, anyway?
The rules are here.
| Eigengrau |
He dominates every single encounter as an Air Elemental. Why do I want to counter it? There's 2 archers in the group who can't really do anything after the first round due to the Druid, he says his 100ft movement speed allows him to pick up every creature in the path he runs over so that grabs almost every mob I've got on the table.
I and the Druid may have been misinformed on the size limit of grabbing creatures. He's 11th level and has been grabbing Large creatures so far. He wrecks everything lol.
Is he immune to Wind effect while in an air elemental form?
He does have some cool armor that allows it to transfer over to his changed shape forms too.
Taenia
|
If the Druid is in large elemental body and has powerful shape they can pick up large creatures. Note he can not be in medium or small, he has to be large for this to work.
There is nothing in Elemental Body that prevents wind from affecting him. However, he does gain the size and bonus to fly skill from perfect fly speed. This may change how wind effects him.
Wild Armor does work that way. Keep in mind if you really want to confuse the issue, have them grapple the whirlwind. Then no one can move.
I admit I am guilty of doing this tactic too. However, I always try to balance my approach with the party. My favorite was grabbing a bunch of hill giants and juggling them while the monk dealt with them one at a time.
You may have a player issue and not a game mechanic issue. Pull the person aside and explain that other players are not enjoying the game as they are dominating the scene. Suggest they go after a few of the creatures to balance out the fight. If I can take half the encounter and put them in time out and let the others in the party deal with the rest then I consider my job complete.
| Eigengrau |
I'll have to check if he has the Powerful Shape feat or not. Even if he does have it, he's still doing the damage wrong, he's been calculating it as 2d6+STR as a huge creature instead of as a large creature. The feat only gives him increased variable on the Whirlwind size stuff not its damage for slam attacks while in it.
Another thing I've noticed is he doesn't have 100ft movement speed yet. He's still limited to 60ft until he's a 12th level Druid, then he'll get up to 120ft speed.
So I can attempt to grapple him while inside the whirlwind huh? That sounds like something I might try if I get caught inside one. Nice.
| DM_Blake |
He dominates every single encounter as an Air Elemental. Why do I want to counter it? There's 2 archers in the group who can't really do anything after the first round due to the Druid, he says his 100ft movement speed allows him to pick up every creature in the path he runs over so that grabs almost every mob I've got on the table.
I and the Druid may have been misinformed on the size limit of grabbing creatures. He's 11th level and has been grabbing Large creatures so far. He wrecks everything lol.
Is he immune to Wind effect while in an air elemental form?
He does have some cool armor that allows it to transfer over to his changed shape forms too.
You seem to be missing a couple rules here:
Why are there archers in this hurricane battle? They cannot use their ranged attacks at all, due to hurricane winds. Magic without attack rolls (fireball, sleep, etc.) will work. Bows, crossbows, even ray spells will not. Did you check the link I provided earlier?
A large whirlwind can only hold four tiny creatures or two small/medium creatures or one large creature (if it can grab a large creature at all). He cannot grab every "mob" on the table unless you don't have more than a couple "mobs". So just have more archers (assuming they can use ranged attacks, like, in some other encounter without the hurricane winds). Double the number of archers and let him grab two; the rest shoot him. The two he grabs draw melee weapons and cut him up from inside.
(side note: "mob". Yuck. Does not apply)
No, he is not immune to wind effects. The hurricane affects him like everyone else. Worse, he's trying to fly and hurricanes make flying hard. Did you check the link I provided earlier?
| Eigengrau |
Eigengrau wrote:He dominates every single encounter as an Air Elemental. Why do I want to counter it? There's 2 archers in the group who can't really do anything after the first round due to the Druid, he says his 100ft movement speed allows him to pick up every creature in the path he runs over so that grabs almost every mob I've got on the table.
I and the Druid may have been misinformed on the size limit of grabbing creatures. He's 11th level and has been grabbing Large creatures so far. He wrecks everything lol.
Is he immune to Wind effect while in an air elemental form?
He does have some cool armor that allows it to transfer over to his changed shape forms too.
You seem to be missing a couple rules here:
Why are there archers in this hurricane battle? They cannot use their ranged attacks at all, due to hurricane winds. Magic without attack rolls (fireball, sleep, etc.) will work. Bows, crossbows, even ray spells will not. Did you check the link I provided earlier?
A large whirlwind can only hold four tiny creatures or two small/medium creatures or one large creature (if it can grab a large creature at all). He cannot grab every "mob" on the table unless you don't have more than a couple "mobs". So just have more archers (assuming they can use ranged attacks, like, in some other encounter without the hurricane winds). Double the number of archers and let him grab two; the rest shoot him. The two he grabs draw melee weapons and cut him up from inside.
(side note: "mob". Yuck. Does not apply)
No, he is not immune to wind effects. The hurricane affects him like everyone else. Worse, he's trying to fly and hurricanes make flying hard. Did you check the link I provided earlier?
Yes Thank you for the link.
The Hurricane winds encounter hasn't happened yet. It will on Tuesday. The archers I speak of, were party members in previous encounters that didn't get anything to do once the Whirlwind Druid scooped up everything on his turn. This scooping up the enemies in battle has been annoying on a level I've not experienced before. The archers will be forced to use other means of attacks after the winds start while on the ship.
I believe at this point the Druid has the Powerful Shape feat, allowing him to grab Large creatures and treating his Whirlwind ability as a Huge Whirlwind. Even with this I now believe he'll only be able to hold maybe 2 large creatures inside his whirlwind attack.
I failed to research just how this whole whirlwind worked and relied on the player (who also GM's our group every few months) to relay the ability to me. I've been failing my DC22 Reflex saves every time, and I've not been able to hit his AC inside the whirlwind 90% of the time.
Taenia, thanks for pointing out the double move of 120, I'll have to adjust accordingly on placement now.
I'll need to have some spellcasters thrown in here possibly to hurl some magic missiles or such. Most likely just some huge creatures, they are on a mission to take out a flying castle that the PC's are trying to prevent happening in the first place.
| Eigengrau |
Yeah, i've been picked up every single time, might have missed a few hits by making a save though. Its an effective tactic for the Druid. Usually he will gather up a few guys and drop them to their death.
I'm going to switch some feats out for reflex save feats when the creatures meet the prereqs. Potions of fly as well. Mobilty and staying as far away as I can wuld help some. Maybe lure druid away with ranged guys and then melee guys can come out of hiding. Melee I have a better chance of hitting rest of partys AC, its in low 30's.
| Snowblind |
Can a casting of control winds be effective against a druid in whirlwind form? Also, there is a limit to the # of rounds he can be in whirlwind form.
If the hurricane force winds he is going to be fighting in don't screw him, upping it to tornado on a failed fort save is *not* going to help much.
According to the Universal Monster Rules the player gets to whirlwind for 1 round per 2 hd. 5 rounds is probably enough to last most of the fight.
Also, neither wind shape nor elemental body put a cap on the number of times he can use it per day. Actual air elementals don't have one either for that matter. There is no reason he can't just reactivate whirlwind when it runs out.