Monk special weapons vs Monk Fighter Weapon group

[kurohyou]

So, I was looking at making a brawler/swashbuckler multiclass to be able to flurry and precise strike when I noticed that the weapon I had planned on using, the Urumi for it's 18-20 crit range and 1d8 damage dice, did not have the monk special property, but is in the monk fighter weapon group which is why I originally thought it would qualify for Brawler's Flurry.

The rules question is, does the monk fighter weapon group count as a monk weapon for abilities that require it? If not, does anybody know why paizo has made the distinction?

There are already several threads about brawler's flurry, two-weapon fighting, and swashbucklers in general, I'm not asking about those issues here.

Thanks for any and all input.

[graystone]

I'll give you one better. What's a thrown weapon...

[kurohyou]

Good point graystone.

That is a pretty similar dilemma, although at least the thrown property isn't present in two places in a weapon's statblock. I would think that any weapon could become a thrown weapon when you throw it, but mechanically, I could see abilities only affecting weapons meant to be thrown weapons.

[supervillan]

A monk weapon is a weapon with the "monk" quality.

You're right that the monk fighter weapon group is different, and includes weapons that do not have the "monk" quality.

You can only flurry with a weapon that has the "monk" quality (or, if you're using brawler's flurry, a monk weapon or a weapon in the close fighter weapon group).

(I suppose some GMs might agree to allow flurrying with weapons in the monk fighter weapon group, it doesn't sound unreasonable to me).

[LazarX]

kurohyou wrote:

So, I was looking at making a brawler/swashbuckler multiclass to be able to flurry and precise strike when I noticed that the weapon I had planned on using, the Urumi for it's 18-20 crit range and 1d8 damage dice, did not have the monk special property, but is in the monk fighter weapon group which is why I originally thought it would qualify for Brawler's Flurry.

The rules question is, does the monk fighter weapon group count as a monk weapon for abilities that require it? If not, does anybody know why paizo has made the distinction?

There are already several threads about brawler's flurry, two-weapon fighting, and swashbucklers in general, I'm not asking about those issues here.

Thanks for any and all input.

The fighter weapon group is mainly for the benefit of fighters for grouping their proficiencies. Fighters don't use the monk property as they don't have flurry. Yes this means that fighters are proficient with more monk weapons than most monks, which fits the class. But they still can't use those weapons with monk qualities to the depths that monks use.

[kurohyou]

LazarX said wrote:

The fighter weapon group is mainly for the benefit of fighters for grouping their proficiencies. Fighters don't use the monk property as they don't have flurry. Yes this means that fighters are proficient with more monk weapons than most monks, which fits the class. But they still can't use those weapons with monk qualities to the depths that monks use.

Fair enough, and I don't really have a problem with that, but what I find weird is that there are weapons in the monk fighter group that monks can't use, not need a feat for, or only some monks can use, can't use at all. That is odd to me.

[Weirdo]

LazarX wrote:

Yes this means that fighters are proficient with more monk weapons than most monks, which fits the class. But they still can't use those weapons with monk qualities to the depths that monks use.

That's not what's weird about this. What's weird is that there are weapons in the monk fighter group that grant no particular benefit to monks, if the monk were able to learn to use them.

Why would you consider an Urumi a monk weapon in any sense if a monk can't learn to use it with a particular depth or skill?

It's not even like there's nowhere better to put it, because it's also (appropriately) in the Flail group.

[Streamwalker]

You can always choose a weapon from close fighter group (like scizore) and use that as a part of brawler's flurry.

[Imbicatus]

Monk weapons mean both the weapon group, and weapons with the monk descriptor. Personally, I think the urumi should have the monk descriptor, especially after watching kalarippayattu videos. Then again, the spear should have it too.

For the purpose of brawlers flurry, I rule that the weapon must have the monk descriptor, not simply a part of the weapon group.

For the purpose of an unarmed fighter being proficient in all monk weapons, that means the group and includes the Urumi.

[Streamwalker]

Imbicatus wrote:

For the purpose of brawlers flurry, I rule that the weapon must have the monk descriptor, not simply a part of the weapon group.

You mean as a house rule? Because ACG says that weapons from Close Fighter Weapon Group can be use as a part of Brawler's Flurry.

[Imbicatus]

Streamwalker wrote:

Imbicatus wrote:

For the purpose of brawlers flurry, I rule that the weapon must have the monk descriptor, not simply a part of the weapon group.

You mean as a house rule? Because ACG says that weapons from Close Fighter Weapon Group can be use as a part of Brawler's Flurry.

I meant monk weapons. They of course can still flurry with close weapons.

Actually, rereading the class, it's explicitly called out that monk means the quality in brawler's flurry.

Brawler wrote:

Brawler's Flurry (Ex): Starting at 2nd level, a brawler can make a brawler's flurry as a full-attack action. When doing so, a brawler has the Two-Weapon Fighting feat when attacking with any combination of unarmed strikes, weapons from the close fighter weapon group, or weapons with the "monk" special feature. She does not need to use two different weapons to use this ability.