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Like the ninjas who involve themselves with honing skills and handing out skillful assassinations against a single foe, the shinobi exist to exert and display their superior combat prowess when facing multiple opponents in battle.
Ki Pool (Su):At 1st level, a shinobi gains a pool of ki points, supernatural energy she can use to accomplish amazing feats. The number of points in the ninja’s ki pool is equal to 1/2 her shinobi level + her Intelligence modifier. As long as she has at least 1 point in her ki pool, she treats any Acrobatics skill check made to jump as if she had a running start. At 10th level, she also reduces the DC of Acrobatics skill checks made to jump by 1/2 (although she still cannot move farther than her speed allows).
By spending 1 point from her ki pool, a shinobi can make one additional attack at her highest attack bonus, but she can do so only when making a full attack. In addition, she can spend 1 point to increase her speed by 20 feet for 1 round. Finally, a shinobi can spend 1 point from her ki pool to give herself a +4 insight bonus on Stealth checks for 1 round. Each of these powers is activated as a swift action.
The ki pool is replenished each morning after 8 hours of rest or meditation; these hours do not need to be consecutive. If the shinobi possesses levels in another class that grants points to a ki pool, shinobi levels stack with the levels of that class to determine the total number of ki points in the combined pool, but only one ability score modifier is added to the total. The choice of which score to use is made when the second class ability is gained, and once made, the choice is set. The shinobi can now use ki points from this pool to power the abilities of every class she possesses that grants a ki pool.
This ability replaces track.
Poison Use (Ex): At 1st level, a shinobi is trained in the use of poison and cannot accidentally poison herself when applying poison to a weapon.
This replaces swift tracker.
Ninja Tricks (Ex or Su): When a shinobi selects a slayer talent, she may choose any ninja trick. The slayer can no longer gain access to rogue talents when taking a slayer talent.
Abundant Step (Su): At 13th level or higher, a shinobi can slip magically between spaces, as if using the spell dimension door. Using this ability is a move action that consumes 2 points from her ki pool. Her caster level for this effect is equal to her shinobi level. She cannot take other creatures with her when she uses this ability.
This replaces slayer's advance.
Ki pool replaces... Track?
And you get Poison Use at 1st level, replacing something you get well beyond 1st level.
Ah, no wonder Headfirst took you to task.
The swaps are unbalanced from the get go.
I'm all for Ninjas. And Slayers. But this is not a well constructed archetype currently. I'll try to think of a way for you to have a part of your cake, and if not eat it, at least have some crumbs.
Originally I wanted to take off a lot of the ranger stuff as well.
It's hardly broken compared to 9th level casting. Damage doesn't mean much when you have Daring Champions around.
This is not a well-designed archetype.
First, you're trading a minor skill bonus on a specific application of a single skill for ... ki pool. Arguably the staple of the monk class. An ability powerful enough to require the rogue to trade evasion for it. And not only that, but you're giving this ability to the slayer THREE levels before the monk and ONE level before the ninja.
Second, you're trading an ability earned at 11th level (swift tracker) for a free ability at 1st level (poison use). That is a staple of poor archetype design, to essentially front load an option for a class. Nevermind that slayers can already select poison use as a slayer talent.
Third, the slayer can't pick from among every rogue talent in the game, so why should he be able to pick from among every ninja trick in the game? And as a matter of fact, this is a DIRECT BUFF to the slayer because ninjas can select "rogue talent" as a ninja trick as often as they want, meaning that instead of actually providing a trade-off at this level, you just allowed the slayer to pick ANY rogue talent and ANY ninja trick as a slayer talent.
The abundant step for slayer's advance is cool, but it does leave several dead levels open. You might want to alter abundant step so it gets better over time in small ways.
Finally, just because one class has 9th-level spellcasting doesn't mean that you should completely throw class balance out of the window when working on archetypes. The point isn't to say, "Well, slayer + my archetype is less powerful than the wizard," the point is, "Is slayer + my archetype roughly equal to vanilla slayer.
I recommend opening the Advanced Class Guide and reading the class design chapter, then coming back here with a revision.
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I'd say trade track and studied combat for the ki pool and you've got yourself a more balanced archetype. Or just studied combat really. Most people barely use track unless their in a very specific kind of campaign. Trading it for a variable bonuses, including using dimension door is just too good of a trade.
I'd say trade track and studied combat for the ki pool and you've got yourself a more balanced archetype. Or just studied combat really. Most people barely use track unless their in a very specific kind of campaign. Trading it for a variable bonuses, including using dimension door is just too good of a trade.
Ki Pool is good. It isn't as good as Studied Target.
I like the idea of making a ninja-like slayer. I like it a lot. Though I think that your trade for the ki pool is too good of a deal.
I'd have ki pool replace a talent or too as well. Perhaps have studied target only ever target 1 creature, instead of eventually targeting 2 and 3.
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I like it, flavor-wise. I think these are good trades in terms of theme and style, but yes, it may be a wee bit unbalanced.
Also, I'd just like to state my opinion that I found the tone of Headfirst's comments to be disparaging and demeaning. I do not think he is "venting" at all, but is feeding off the wounds he enjoys stabbing into homebrewers. Nothing he has added to this thread has been cool or helpful. Just my 2 coppers.
Remove medium armor and ranger combat styles.
I personally think the archetype would suck big time if we got rid of studied target.
That said, he does also need to lose quarry and improved quarry, as those are tied to track. Don't give him anything in exchange, just lose those two abilities. Limit the nija talents to just those that offer ki abilities (pretty much all of them anyway).
That means you trade track, swift tracker, quarry, and improved quarry for ki.
If that's not fair idk what is.
Remove medium armor and ranger combat styles.
I personally think the archetype would suck big time if we got rid of studied target.
That said, he does also need to lose quarry and improved quarry, as those are tied to track. Don't give him anything in exchange, just lose those two abilities. Limit the nija talents to just those that offer ki abilities (pretty much all of them anyway).
That means you trade track, swift tracker, quarry, and improved quarry for ki.
If that's not fair idk what is.
I think it is quite fair. If and when I ever play a slayer, a shinobi it will be.
The slayer replaces the rogue, sure.
The ranger tho? I still see the ranger as better because spells. Instant Enemy and Terrain Bond make the ranger better at all times, plus access to deeper darkvision and cures and resistances.
The slayer is marginally worse by comparison, it gets sneak attack, which is comparable to I guess a couple spells.
The slayer really isn't that OP, it's just a rogue that can hit things and doesn't absolutely need sneak attack to not be worthless.
Calling it over powered is what got Crane Wing to happen.
The slayer replaces the rogue, sure.
The ranger tho? I still see the ranger as better because spells. Instant Enemy and Terrain Bond make the ranger better at all times, plus access to deeper darkvision and cures and resistances.
The slayer is marginally worse by comparison, it gets sneak attack, which is comparable to I guess a couple spells.
The slayer really isn't that OP, it's just a rogue that can hit things and doesn't absolutely need sneak attack to not be worthless.
Calling it over powered is what got Crane Wing to happen.
I can see people who like the slayer's point, having an assassin class that doesn't suck is enticing but I do find the slayer heavily appeals to munchkin damage maximizers. I think the class heavily encroaches on the ranger and the rogue. Yes I do believe the rogue needs a boast and that the ranger is still potent, by the way have you see the spell-less ranger? very cool concept.
I do apologize I am heavily biased against the slayer because it is every martial players wet dream.
As for the Crane Wing style, I believe the nerf was unnecessary, I still play with the old ruling, Pathfinder needs more defensive options.
The slayer replaces the rogue, sure.
The ranger tho? I still see the ranger as better because spells. Instant Enemy and Terrain Bond make the ranger better at all times, plus access to deeper darkvision and cures and resistances.
The slayer is marginally worse by comparison, it gets sneak attack, which is comparable to I guess a couple spells.
The slayer really isn't that OP, it's just a rogue that can hit things and doesn't absolutely need sneak attack to not be worthless.
Calling it over powered is what got Crane Wing to happen.I can see people who like the slayer's point, having an assassin class that doesn't suck is enticing but I do find the slayer heavily appeals to munchkin damage maximizers. I think the class heavily encroaches on the ranger and the rogue. Yes I do believe the rogue needs a boast and that the ranger is still potent, by the way have you see the spell-less ranger? very cool concept.
I do apologize I am heavily biased against the slayer because it is every martial players wet dream.
As for the Crane Wing style, I believe the nerf was unnecessary, I still play with the old ruling, Pathfinder needs more defensive options.
It isn't stronger than the paladin or barbarian damage wise.
6d6 sneak attack is nothing really as far as damage goes, scaling up to +5 to hit and damage really isn't that great either. Fighters get +6/+8 on their primary weapon group by taking the fighter feats, so the +5 really isn't that great. Gloves of dueling make it +8/+10.
The only thing that makes it truly better than the fighter is the skills, which people have been wanting for a long time for the fighter anyway. Even at that, it's the same as a ranger, so it does nothing new or overpowered, it just combines the best things of what people want into a class that they actually like.
Again, the class is no where near broken, and comparable to the barbarian, ranger, and paladin, which is exactly where it needs to be power-wise.
The ranger's actually generally stronger than the Slayer most of the time. Spells and an animal companion is nearly impossible to overcome with just more plusses, and once a Ranger starts having Hunter's Howl and ways to get Instant Enemy equipped, the Slayer is basically only coming out ahead in that it's less resource-intensive to set up its bonuses. I've actually had a Slayer and a Ranger working together in a party, and I found that while the Slayer was very good at their job, the Ranger remained the party's MVP in dropping targets with less support from the party's wizard and bard required. Even without tricks to get Instant Enemy all the time, the Slayer's not putting the Ranger out of a job, especially not when the Ranger can protect their niche with an action economy advantage few if any other full BAB classes have access to.
The class is much better than the rogue, but this admittedly isn't very hard because the rogue is a combat class that was not designed to be good at combat, so pretty much everyone outshines it. PF Unchained is basically the rogue's only shot at being relevant again outside of thug/scout debuff combos, so I don't really have an issue with the Slayer and the Investigator retiring the core rogue. The Investigator crystalizes the role of the trap-busting skill master while the Slayer crystalizes the role of the skillful, sneaky killer. It lets two focused classes replace one schizophrenic one, and I feel like that's to the good overall.
The spell-less ranger from Kobold press is a class I'm aware of...and if you think the Slayer's too powerful I really question your judgement to prefer it. The spell-less ranger, playing completely by the rules kobold press gave him, is fully capable of having two druid-level animal companions at LEVEL 4. You wanna see a guy that embarrasses the rest of the party, see how the slayer's attacks stack up against the dude who's got two wolves backing him up.
Relax all, I know I'm throwing blood in the water by slayer hating, I know its a fan favorite, and I will not win allies by disliking it:)
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I too like the concept but think the trade-outs are a little bit one-sided.
Using subtraction analysis between Ninja and Shinobi, even assuming the values of (Poison Use, No Trace, Uncanny Dodge, Light Steps, Improved Uncanny Dodge) = (Track, Stalker, Swift Tracker, Slayer's Advance, Quarry, Improved Quarry), which they are not, we are left with:
favoring Slayer:
-Weapon Proficiency disparity
-BAB disparity
-HD disparity
-Saving Throw disparity
favoring Ninja:
-Skill Ranks disparity
-Ki Pool disparity
-Sneak Attack dice disparity
I personally think it's be cool to keep all the gadgets and widgets of both parents, and give back in the chassis department. I suggest:
-Reduce BAB (to 3/4)
-Reduce Skill points (to 6)
-Reduce Saves (to just Reflex)
-Reduce Ki Pool (to gaining at 2nd level)
-Keep the Shinobi MAD (use CHA for Ki Pool)
my 2cp
Yeah that just sounds bad.
I'll keep it as is mostly. Giving up the ranger stuff and gaining the ki stuff is the point of the archetype.
At work right now, I'll write the next draft tonight.
I'd like to note that a Ki Pool that does not have the extra attack power is equal to a Rogue Talent in Paizo's mind. I'm not sure how much something like Track is worth, but probably less than a Rogue Talent.
I'd like to note that a Ki Pool that does not have the extra attack power is equal to a Rogue Talent in Paizo's mind. I'm not sure how much something like Track is worth, but probably less than a Rogue Talent.I dunno. Have you seen some of the rogue talents we get? I'd much rather have Track than Rogue Crawl.
Touche. I suppose you have to compare Track to the talents which are considered the best (usually those that give you feats).
Let's also not forget that track was once a feat.
But Ki pool was also replacing quarry and swift tracker which are decent abilities.
I'm really surprised no one has theory created a build with dimensional savant, since the flanking allows you to finally have consistent sneak attack without level dipping.
Like the ninjas who involve themselves with honing skills and handing out skillful assassinations against a single foe, the shinobi exist to exert and display their superior combat prowess when facing multiple opponents in battle.
Weapon and Armor proficiency: Shinobi are proficient with all simple weapons, plus the kama, katana, kusarigama, nunchaku, sai, shortbow, short sword, shuriken, siangham, and wakizashi. They are proficient with light armor but not with shields.
Poison Use (Ex): At 1st level, a shinobi is trained in the use of poison and cannot accidentally poison herself when applying poison to a weapon.
This ability replaces track.
Ki Pool (Su): At 2nd level, a shinobi gains a pool of ki points, supernatural energy she can use to accomplish amazing feats. The number of points in the ninja’s ki pool is equal to 1/2 her shinobi level + her Intelligence modifier. As long as she has at least 1 point in her ki pool, she treats any Acrobatics skill check made to jump as if she had a running start. At 10th level, she also reduces the DC of Acrobatics skill checks made to jump by 1/2 (although she still cannot move farther than her speed allows).
By spending 1 point from her ki pool, a shinobi can make one additional attack at her highest attack bonus, but she can do so only when making a full attack. In addition, she can spend 1 point to increase her speed by 20 feet for 1 round. Finally, a shinobi can spend 1 point from her ki pool to give herself a +4 insight bonus on Stealth checks for 1 round. Each of these powers is activated as a swift action.
The ki pool is replenished each morning after 8 hours of rest or meditation; these hours do not need to be consecutive. If the shinobi possesses levels in another class that grants points to a ki pool, shinobi levels stack with the levels of that class to determine the total number of ki points in the combined pool, but only one ability score modifier is added to the total. The choice of which score to use is made when the second class ability is gained, and once made, the choice is set. The shinobi can now use ki points from this pool to power the abilities of every class she possesses that grants a ki pool.
This ability replaces swift tracker, quarry, and improved quarry.
Slayer Talents: When a shinobi selects a slayer talent, she may choose any ninja trick whose effects are tied to her ki pool in addition to those she can normally choose. She can no longer choose the ranger combat style talent.
This alters the Slayer Talent class feature.
Abundant Step (Su): At 13th level or higher, a shinobi can slip magically between spaces, as if using the spell dimension door. Using this ability is a move action that consumes 2 points from her ki pool. Her caster level for this effect is equal to her shinobi level. She cannot take other creatures with her when she uses this ability.
This replaces slayer's advance.
I just don't get your logic at all.
You are replacing 11th, 14th and 19th level abilities for something you get at 2nd level that outmatches them.
Given the synergy of gaining an extra attack (with corresponding Studied Target bonuses) all the way from 2nd level to 11th when you would normally gain the "awesome awesome" power of swift tracker this is borked.
And why remove the choice of Ranger Combat Styles - your flavor text actually specifies "superior combat prowess when facing multiple opponents in battle" rather than the shadowy sneak/climb/assassinate single opponents of the simple genin/ninja.
I like the concept, but I don't agree with your design implementation.
I just don't get your logic at all.
You are replacing 11th, 14th and 19th level abilities for something you get at 2nd level that outmatches them.
Given the synergy of gaining an extra attack (with corresponding Studied Target bonuses) all the way from 2nd level to 11th when you would normally gain the "awesome awesome" power of swift tracker this is borked.
And why remove the choice of Ranger Combat Styles - your flavor text actually specifies "superior combat prowess when facing multiple opponents in battle" rather than the shadowy sneak/climb/assassinate single opponents of the simple genin/ninja.
I like the concept, but I don't agree with your design implementation.
Most of those decisions came from feedback, actually.
And there are plenty of archetypes that replace later class features early, swift tracker and quarry just happen to all be tied to track so replacing all of them with the super uber ki ability seemed about fair.
The superior combat prowess can come from studied target as well as full BAB, no need to offer free no prereq feats along with the ki stuff.
tl;dr, balance issues from feedback.
Understood. But there is nothing balanced about replacing 11th level, 14th and 19th level abilities to grant something at 2nd level.
There is always an amount of artistry that conceals "balance" on a level by level basis, or higher level basis. But given you've replaced a non-offensive ability for a combat ability (poison use) PLUS the quite large level disparity, this is not good design...
Understood. But there is nothing balanced about replacing 11th level, 14th and 19th level abilities to grant something at 2nd level.
There is always an amount of artistry that conceals "balance" on a level by level basis, or higher level basis. But given you've replaced a non-offensive ability for a combat ability (poison use) PLUS the quite large level disparity, this is not good design...
And in doing so I also took away combat ability like medium armor, weapon proficiency, and ranger styles.
Plus, ki pool is a scaling ability, where track is a gateway ability.
Had not noticed loss of medium armor. My apologies. I applaud that. Loss of weapons where you still have wakizashi and katana? Not so much. ;)
Not sure I understand what you mean by "scaling" compared to "gateway". However compared to a vanilla slayer you are getting an extra attack with Studied Target buffs every round on a full attack. Combined with TWF (regardless of loss of Ranger Combat Style to help with that, which you don't get at 1st level anyway) perhaps using, oh I don't know, say….keen wakizashis, this is quite the boost.
As I said, I do like the concept.
Had not noticed loss of medium armor. My apologies. I applaud that. Loss of weapons where you still have wakizashi and katana? Not so much. ;)
Not sure I understand what you mean by "scaling" compared to "gateway". However compared to a vanilla slayer you are getting an extra attack with Studied Target buffs every round on a full attack. Combined with TWF (regardless of loss of Ranger Combat Style to help with that, which you don't get at 1st level anyway) perhaps using, oh I don't know, say….keen wakizashis, this is quite the boost.
As I said, I do like the concept.
Still gotta compete for the swift action, besides, it's not worse than a barbarian picking up natural attacks.