If you use Broken Wing Gambit, you don't get an AoO, but your allies do. Those attacks are made prior to the enemy's attack:
An attack of opportunity “interrupts” the normal flow of actions in the round. If an attack of opportunity is provoked, immediately resolve the attack of opportunity, then continue with the next character's turn (or complete the current turn, if the attack of opportunity was provoked in the midst of a character's turn).
Not for teamwork feats.
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Not for teamwork feats.
Oh?
I thought specifics of the feats determined it's effect, and didn't override the normal rules, except where it explicitly says it does.
Is there something that specifically overrides the rules, and even more specifically, this FAQ?
Probably nothing written, just intended (which would fall under the "makes no sense" clause of that FAQ).
The guy attacks you, provoking an AoO from allies with the feat. And AoOs always come before the triggering event (that's why you can't trip someone standing up. Thei're still prone). Paired opportunists triggers off that AoO so all AoOs come before the attack.
Most teamwork feats say the ally must be adjacent to you, broken wing does not. Fascinating..
You do count as having the feat, but the intent is clear even if the wording, due to a faq that casts too wide a net, muddles it up for you.
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Let's just throw it out here, so we all remember what we are talking about:
Broken Wing Gambit (Combat, Teamwork)
You feign weakness, making yourself a tempting and distracting target.
Prerequisite: Bluff 5 ranks.
Benefit: Whenever you make a melee attack and hit your opponent, you can use a free action to grant that opponent a +2 bonus on attack and damage rolls against you until the end of your next turn or until your opponent attacks you, whichever happens first. If that opponent attacks you with this bonus, it provokes attacks of opportunity from your allies who have this feat.
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Why would it be labeled as a teamwork feat if you didn't need a team to use it? If this isn't one of the cases where "counting as your own ally makes no sense" then when does? It's a teamwork feat, therefor it functions when working as a team. Or are next you going to say that Escape Route also functions just by yourself since it doesn't specify "not yourself" in the feat and that you can always move unhindered by AoOs (due to movement)?
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It benefits from teamwork. It creates attacks of opportunity from your allies who have this feat.
You, being your own ally, get one too.
If "but it's a Teamwork feat!" is you only support, then you must support the idea that any feat noted as a "Combat feat", must only be used during combat.
Power Attack to smash a lock? Not outside of combat!
That thinking doesn't make sense.
Counting as your own ally in regards to this feat? Makes sense.
You give your enemy a better chance of hitting/hurting you, to sneak an attack from you, and others around you.
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I suppose.
The Teamwork benefit doesn't go away, just because you count as your own ally.
Even if it was worded, to not benefit others with this feat, and was not a Teamwork feat, it would function in a clear, and balanced fashion.
As you seem to see it, counting as your own ally here, takes away from the "teamwork" aspect.
As I see it, it does quite the opposite, and not only supports the "teamwork" aspect, but adds to it, as you are part of said "team".
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If I can benefit from a 'Teamwork' feat when there isn't an ally within miles of me, calling it a 'Teamwork' feat is rather misleading - and goes entirely against the spirit and intent of teamwork feats.
Teamwork feats grant large bonuses, but they only function under specific circumstances. In most cases, these feats require an ally who also possesses the feat to be positioned carefully on the battlefield. Teamwork feats provide no bonus if the listed conditions are not met.
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Combat feats can be used outside of combat.
Look, there is a greater benefit, when used with additional allies, and counting as your own ally, does not detract from this.
Hell, look at the description of Teamwork feats. It says "In most cases, these feats require an ally who also possesses the feat to be positioned carefully on the battlefield."
That, in itself, suggests that there are cases in which you don't need an ally with the feat nearby. It does not say "In all cases".
You've read that wrong. It does not mean that in some cases you don't need an ally. It means in those other cases your ally does not have a requirement of "...[being] positioned carefully on the battlefield."
Can I, using "Splash Volley", target a creature adjacent to me, and if I miss, catch my own splash weapon and redirect it?
Can I use "Target of Opportunity" to grant myself an extra attack?
Can I use "Team Pickpocketing" to bluff a guy and steal from him with a bonus?
Can I used "Underhanded Teamwork" to increase the duration of my own dirty tricks by 1 round?
Does "Volley Fire" give my own iterative attacks an additional +1 to hit?
The fluff of none of the above supports the idea that you are your own ally for purposes of the intent of these feats.
You are misapplying the intent and breadth of the "You are your own ally FAQ". It is clearly not intended to apply for these feats. Far to many people on these forums read "You count as your own ally" and stop there. The rest of the FAQ is relevant - "if doing so would make no sense" very much applies here.
Combat feats don't refer to being in combat, they refer to a fighting stance or style of attack. e.g, power attack is a stance or style that puts more force into your attacks at a loss of accuracy.
As additional note, if any of those feats were intended to apply with you as your own ally, they could have been worded much differently and still generated the same effect.
For example
Prerequisite(s): Rend, troll.Benefit(s): Whenever you and an ally who has this feat are both threatening the same creature, you must hit the target with at least one of your claw attacks to use your rend ability.
Normal: You must hit with two of your claw attacks to use your rend ability.
Could have just been written as
Benefit(s): You only need to hit a creature with a single claw attack in order to use your rend ability.
Saves on word count, and no confusion about meaning and understanding that "you are your own ally".
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Okay, let's try to go through all these examples of yours:
1) Splash Volley: Such an action does nothing.
2) Team Pickpocketing: Sure, it eats up actions.
3) Underhanded Teamwork: Require at least two people threatening the target.
4) Volley Fire: One Iterative, as the bonus is an one per ally bonus.
Underhanded teamwork: if you are your own ally, don't both you, and your ally (you) threaten?
Volley Fire: If my BAB is 16, I have 3 iteratives. Wouldn't it have just been easier to say you get a +1 to all your ranged attacks against the same target within 30' after the first attack in a full attack?
How about combat medic?
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Underhanded Teamwork: It specifically notes "you both threaten". This is a case that falls under "doesn't make sense" as you can't be two people, who both threaten.
Volley Fire: It notes "+1 bonus on ranged attack rolls for each ally", and you, as your own ally, still only count as such, once. You don't count as multiple allies.
Underhanded Teamwork: It specifically notes "you both threaten". This is a case that falls under "doesn't make sense" as you can't be two people, who both threaten.
Is there a distinction I'm missing between that, and "...these feats require an ally who also possesses the feat.."?
EDIT: That word "also" means in addition to yourself - as in at least two (or both) of you.
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Is there a distinction I'm missing between that, and "...these feats require an ally who also possesses the feat.."?Underhanded Teamwork: It specifically notes "you both threaten". This is a case that falls under "doesn't make sense" as you can't be two people, who both threaten.
You mean "In most cases...".
...or does "In most cases" mean "every single time, all the time"?
Is there a distinction I'm missing between that, and "...these feats require an ally who also possesses the feat.."?Underhanded Teamwork: It specifically notes "you both threaten". This is a case that falls under "doesn't make sense" as you can't be two people, who both threaten.
You mean "In most cases...".
...or does "In most cases" mean "every single time, all the time"?
Pretty sure I covered that already.
You've read that wrong. It does not mean that in some cases you don't need an ally. It means in those other cases your ally does not have a requirement of "...[being] positioned carefully on the battlefield."
So, you don't count as your own ally, and you don't count as having this feat, but only for this one instance, and the reason is "because..."?
I think if one was to refute this, they would have a better reason.
Because someone could consider that being your own ally for this feat is silly, thus meeting one of the exemptions of being your own ally.
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So, let's get this out there.
In the case of all Teamwork feats, you never count as your own ally, no matter what?
Is the end all, be all, conclusion, that I am looking to surrender to?
No independent, or unusual case. No exceptions.
You never, ever, count as your own ally, in regards to any feat, noted as Teamwork.
This is correct, yes?
Why don't you state your case instead of asking leading questions? (Maybe you aren't actually asking a leading question, but it is coming across that way).
I'm aware of two feats that are listed as teamwork feats that don't actually fit the pattern of teamwork feats - there may be others, feel free to point them out if there are.
Betraying Blow: Why is this listed as a teamwork feat? There is no mention of working with your team, or with an ally. And has as a prereq Solo Maneuvers (the opposite of team). It gains a bonus if your target has no reason to be suspicious of you (friendly or better attitude). But that is an entirely different thing than gain X benefit because an ally has this feat. The rules on being your own ally (or not) have no bearing on how this feat even works.
Callous Casting: Also doesn't fit the mold, but is a little better. You have an abettor (which by definition of the word abettor is someone who is not you, who is helping you) - so that is all and good. But you couldn't include yourself in the spells effect and claim to be your own abettor and thus gain the benefits. Also the abettor has no requirement to have the teamwork feat themselves. It does however increase the effectiveness of your AoE spells (not unlike Allied Caster increases your spell casting). So this one functions sort of like other teamwork feats, but looks to be an exception, rather than a general case.
Are there any other odd ball ones?
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I am only saying that in some cases, of some Teamwork feats, your ability to count as your own ally, shouldn't be ignored.
In quite a number of cases, it really won't make sense, like Outflank.
Others, counting as your own ally, can still work for you.
I believe that a feat being in the "Teamwork" category, does not, in itself, prevent this.
As I noted with feats that in the "Combat" category, do not prevent them from being used outside of combat, by simply being in said category.
Broken Wing Gambit appears to be such a case.
If it is not, then I believe there needs to be more than "it's a teamwork feat!" as a reason, as to why not.
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I understand your reference now.
I also fully understand a different reading of Broken Wing Gambit.
I just believe that one can dismiss a different interpretation, based solely on the category a feat falls under.
Imagine, if a player wanted to use Monkey Style, to give himself a better chance at jumping over a gap, by adding his wisdom to Acrobatics.
Would he have to start a fight first?
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That's a fair assessment.
Although, in the case of Broken Wing Gambit, it notes "it provokes attacks of opportunity from your allies who have this feat", and not "it provokes attacks of opportunity from allies who also have this feat.
This means it falls directly under the second sentence of the FAQ, which states: "Thus, "your allies" almost always means the same as "you and your allies.""
I understand your reference now.
I also fully understand a different reading of Broken Wing Gambit.
I just believe that one can dismiss a different interpretation, based solely on the category a feat falls under.
Imagine, if a player wanted to use Monkey Style, to give himself a better chance at jumping over a gap, by adding his wisdom to Acrobatics.
Would he have to start a fight first?
Re: Monkey Style
Just about every style feat has 2 entries
A) a flat benefit
B) an entry with the clause "while using this style"I understand that *some* individuals seemingly parse it differently, but it's a pretty asinine position imo.
(However, even if it's intended that you need to use the style, I don't recall activation being limited to combat.)Re: BWG
The table text also supports your position btw, which may add credence to the notion that that word "also" was not omitted by accident.
Somewhere it says you can't start combat already in a stance.
As a swift action, you can enter the stance employed by the fighting style a style feat embodies. Although you cannot use a style feat before combat begins, the style you are in persists until you spend a swift action to switch to a different combat style.
and:
Benefit: You can switch your style as a free action. At the start of combat, pick one of your styles. You start the combat in that style, even in the surprise round.
So strictly, you can't use style feats outside of combat.
That said if there is a clause before it states "while using this style" (like in Monkey Style) it should be always available. At least that's how I've always read it.
As a swift action, you can enter the stance employed by the fighting style a style feat embodies. Although you cannot use a style feat before combat begins, the style you are in persists until you spend a swift action to switch to a different combat style.and:
Benefit: You can switch your style as a free action. At the start of combat, pick one of your styles. You start the combat in that style, even in the surprise round.So strictly, you can't use style feats outside of combat.
That said if there is a clause before it states "while using this style" (like in Monkey Style) it should be always available. At least that's how I've always read it.
No, strictly reading you can only use it out of combat if there has already been a combat in which you activated it and you did not stop using the style.
- You have to be in combat to start using the style
- It is an Action to stop using it.
--> If you never stop using the style it stays on. Probably not RAI but RAW.