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Let me get straight to the point.
If i, being a lvl 1 divine caster, cast Sun Metal on my weapon and don't get any AoOs, i wont make even one attack with it, as it will dissipate just before the start of my next round.
I think i came up with somewhat a solution for this problem, yet i would like some people other than me to take a look at my master plan, as it is possible i overlooked some flaw in it.
Setup: level 1 oracle/cleric with morningstar, buckler and sun metal spell.
Default way:
1) I cast Sun Metal with my offhand, losing +1 bonus from buckler for the round.
2) As a part of casting a spell with a range "touch", i, well, touch my morningstar with my offhand, and it gains SunMetal.
3) I spend a round possibly getting some AoOs with my flaming morningstar.
4) My next round comes up: i can attack somebody, yet i already do not have SM on my weapon.
Intricate way:
1) I cast Sun Metal with my offhand, losing +1 bonus from buckler for the round.
2) As a part of casting a spell with a range "touch", i have to touch my weapon. But i will not.
*) Note that the spell is not autodischarged onto my weapon, for if this was the case, no oracle or cleric or whoever would be able to buff his friends' weapons without first letting go of his own. As people can enhance other people's weapons with magic, and because of existence of Magi who specifically say so, i assume that the spell is being held in my specific hand (offhand) rather than in both of them as a lot of people seem to think, and is being held until i, at will or accidentally, touch anything with this hand.
3) I wait for my next turn, getting AoOs with my morningstar without any enchants and catching arrows with my knees due to lack of buckler.
*) I see possibilities for GMs here to homerule that if i am successfully grappled, i must roll something like d20, and on 1-6 the spell goes to the enemy's weapon, and or 7-14 it fizzles due to being discharged into the floor/enemy's armor/other things that do not benefit from this spell and on 15-20 it is still in hand.
*) Also i believe it makes sense to homerule that you won't get a buckler bonus until you've discharged a spell, as you are actively trying to _not_ discharge it onto an enemy's flail.
4) My next round begins, and i have spell charged in my hand. I apply Sun Metal for my weapon as a free action (as it is just a "temporarily placing a hand on a weapon" and requires no concentration whatsoever), walk to the nearest foe who dared to oppose me and smite him for the whopping 1d4 + 1d8 + 2 damage, or miss miserably.
5) I wait for my next turn, now without the penalty to the AC (i didn't cast any spells, so my buckler is back). Also i am getting one AoO with my flaming morningstar.
Well, that's it. What are your thoughts on this matter? It seems as it is perfectly legal and not game breaking to do, yet i would like to learn all possible reactions to this sequence of actions as it is possible in PFS to play with a GM you don't know.
Spell Reference: Sun Metal
4) My next round begins, and i have spell charged in my hand. I apply Sun Metal for my weapon as a free action (as it is just a "temporarily placing a hand on a weapon" and requires no concentration whatsoever), walk to the nearest foe who dared to oppose me and smite him for the whopping 1d4 + 1d8 + 2 damage, or miss miserably.
This is where you might have a problem. This is probably not a free action. You only get a free touch when casting a touch spell on the turn that you cast it, after that it's usually a standard action or part of a full attack action.
Hmm, what about communal buffs or other spells that let you touch multiple people. When are held touch charges completely discharged?
If you check the "Actions in Combat" table, it is a full-round action to "use a touch spell on up to six friends".
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Spell Reference: Sun Metal
4) My next round begins, and i have spell charged in my hand. I apply Sun Metal for my weapon as a free action (as it is just a "temporarily placing a hand on a weapon" and requires no concentration whatsoever), walk to the nearest foe who dared to oppose me and smite him for the whopping 1d4 + 1d8 + 2 damage, or miss miserably.This is where you might have a problem. This is probably not a free action. You only get a free touch when casting a touch spell on the turn that you cast it, after that it's usually a standard action or part of a full attack action.
Touch is a standard action if i cast offensive spell, as i have to make a touch attack. But i am not attacking, i am just grabbing my own weapon. Per FAQ:
Two-Handed Weapons: What kind of action is it to remove your hand from a two-handed weapon or re-grab it with both hands?Both are free actions. For example, a wizard wielding a quarterstaff can let go of the weapon with one hand as a free action, cast a spell as a standard action, and grasp the weapon again with that hand as a free action; this means the wizard is still able to make attacks of opportunity with the weapon (which requires using two hands).
Thus I have to spend additional SA to touch somebody else's weapon, yet touching my own is a free action, as I am not "Touch attacking" it but just re-grabbing as if to power attack, and spel just goes off into it.
tldr: It would have been an SA if it was touch attack, but it is not.
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In the turns following casting it requires a standard action to make the touch "attack" to properly apply the spell(it automatically hits if the target is friendly), not a free action.
The idea is that it is free action per FAQ to grab one's weapon with second hand, otherwise no wizard would be able to cast a spell and get AoO from his 2h staff on the same turn.
Held spells are not localized to a specific body part, so putting an extra hand on an object already held does nothing. If you draw a new weapon, the spell would discharge as part of drawing that weapon.
The description of magi and the whole idea of priest casting beneficial spells on anybody but himself contradicts the first sentense, as magi rules specifically clarified that a touch spells are attached to a hand that cast them, and it's not a feature of magus but rather "how it works", it has nothing to do with neither Spellstrike nor the rest of his abilities. (edit: technicaly it is a part of SpellCombat's description, but i think the point of spell combat is casting the spells as a part of fullround attack and the ability to move penalties around between casting and attacking)
Also, your italicized sentence contradicts the first part of the quote, because if it would not be free action to discharge a spell into a weapon of your own, you would not be able to combine it with a move action.
Basicaly, right now the only issue left is whether spells are localized to specific hand or not. You can do two-weapon fighting with a mainhand weapon and offhand held spell, so i think spells are localized, as you would not discharge touch spell with your main hand even if it was unarmed.
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That wasn't the question. The question was can you "hold the charge" on communal touch spells.Hmm, what about communal buffs or other spells that let you touch multiple people. When are held touch charges completely discharged?If you check the "Actions in Combat" table, it is a full-round action to "use a touch spell on up to six friends".
I believe the question was can you hold the touch buff in your offhand so you can apply it on the next round as a free action (faq: letting go of and grabbing back your weapon with a second hand is a free action) and get an attack with it.
As for your debate which is completely off-topic and irrelevant to the current thread:
FAQ:Touch Spells: If a spell allows multiple touches, are you considered to be holding the charge until all charges are expended?
Yes.
Also, holding is hardly an abuse if you do that with Bit of Luck: you spend an SA to cast it, then you buff your weapon on your next round so you can take highest of two attack rolls. OR you can just attack twice consecutively and basically take both of your two attack rolls. It makes sense only if you prepare for something big incoming: but even then, it's not a gamebreaker either.
Btw, thanks for the input. Does anybody else see any weak points in this sequence of actions? Because rehearsing technical disputes before seeing your new DM seems like the only way to be sure you will play the character you intended to :D
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Dantrag, you have a fundamental misunderstanding on how holding the charge works. The charge is not localized to a specific body part. It you kick something it discharges, if you touch it with your hand discharges, if you touch it with any body part it discharges. However, the game makes the assumption that any object that is currently being held/worn as well as the ground(assuming you are on ground) don't discharge the spell. Trying to cheat the system using a free action to put another hand on the weapon doesn't work. Either the spell automatically discharges from the hand you already have on it, or it takes...
Can you provide a reference for spells being held "globally"? Because if spells are not being held localized, any grapple attempt, weapon attack or body slam againist the mage with a shocking grasp held will cause the magic to be discharged without him even trying to outdice touch AC of the enemy. Also, you would never be able to touchattack anything that's already grappling you (giant squid, giant barbarian). (Note that there's four contradicting entries for casting spells while grappled; and it seems that you can cast spells while grappled, just not any spell and with concentration checks).
Also, the whole concept of Magi goes to the bin, as his description was the first entry in the rules to actually describe spells held in second hand as an offhand weapon completely independent of mainhand one. If spells are held globalzied, he's free to apply spell with his natural claws attack (from him being a sorcerer) at level one. But he needs to wait for Spellstrike at level 2 to actually get the ability to discharge spells with hand other than the one he cast them with.Also about the duration of spells: i can't seem to find the reference to duration starting at the spellcast either. The only rule covering this matter i was able to find states that the charge can be held indefinitely for all spells with range:touch, with no regard to duration.
Perfect, thanks.Made an edit if you didnt catch it, holding depends on if the spell includes making the touches or not. Teleport does and cannot be held, communal endure does not and can be held.Hmm, then it gets confusing again. Why do you only get a 6 friend, full-round action touch with communal endure elements, when you get multiple rounds of holding the charge with something like chill touch?
Why can't I touch ally 1 on round 1, ally 2 on round 2, and so on?
Simple answer: it's magic.
Simple metagame answer: because the rules say so.
Complex answer: maybe because with duration spells, it could get complex keeping track of who has what duration so maybe it's just easier if every recipient is touched on the same round to get the same expiration.
Outside of PFS, I doubt many GMs would disagree with you. I wouldn't; I'd allow you to spread out your touching over as many rounds as you want to hold it (but the duration begins on the round you finished casting, not on the round you touch the recipient, so they'll all still end at the same time but some of them might start late and get less than the full duration). But that's house rule territory.
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In Pathfinder there is a difference between you touching something and something touching you.
Hm. That's somewhat strange as it can be covered by "touching unintentionally", but i can see why they made it so.
Also, i was editing my previous post for too long, here's the rest of arguments:
Also, the whole concept of Magi goes to the bin, as his description was the first entry in the rules to actually describe spells held in second hand as an offhand weapon completely independent of mainhand one. If spells are held globalzied, he's free to apply spell with his natural claws attack (from him being a sorcerer) at level one. But he needs to wait for Spellstrike at level 2 to actually get the ability to discharge spells with hand other than the one he cast them with.
Also about the duration of spells: i can't seem to find the reference to duration starting at the spellcast either. The only rule covering this matter i was able to find states that the charge can be held indefinitely for all spells with range:touch, with no regard to duration.
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Actually, these rules do not specify when the time measure starts; you assume it starts on spellcast while i assume it starts on spellrelease. Is there anything more specific about this matter?
As for delivering spell with natural attack on level 1: my bad. This actually clears it a bit for me, however i do not see anything that forbids me to intentionally release a spell held into item i have on me.
Just thought of an interesting situation:
I am a priest with a dagger. I cast inflict wounds and hold it.
Now, i am not a magus, so i cannot discharge IW with my dagger attack.
That means that any item effectively insulates my hand againist the discharge, so i can don a glove and go pet my favourite kitten, then put the glove away and kill the postal guy with a handshake for crumpling my newspaper.
Also, such a scenario:
I have a dagger in my hand.
Now, I cast sun metal: i want to buff my pal nearby me.
According to the spells storing globally, the spell autodischarges immediately into my mainhand weapon, as at the point of ending the cast i was holding only onto my weapon. I would not be able to cast a spell while holding both my and my pal's weapon as it has somatic components; thus a priest can not buff any person other than himself.
If he IS capable of not discharging the spell into the held dagger, but at the point of making such decision dagger becomes "part of myself" so i cannot target it anymore, then i just have to wear a glove to avoid "touching" my dagger: as i do not have to specifically say that i "do not discharge my spell into a dagger that's in a sheath".
Or a priest has to drop every weapon he has on him to buff his ally?
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Actually, these rules do not specify when the time measure starts; you assume it starts on spellcast while i assume it starts on spellrelease. Is there anything more specific about this matter?
As for delivering spell with natural attack on level 1: my bad. This actually clears it a bit for me, however i do not see anything that forbids me to intentionally release a spell held into item i have on me.** spoiler omitted **
Putting on the glove discharges your spell as it was not held/worn at the time of casting.
For your second scenario, you have to choose to discharge the weapon into a weapon you are holding, it doesnt do so automatically (this takes a standard action if not done as part of the casting). So if you dont want to discharge into your weapon thats fine, you just cant touch anything else until you discharge it into whatever you want to discharge it into.
I assumed i held the glove in my second hand at the same time i held a weapon in it, sorry, i really thought i mentioned that.
And i still cant find anything on the matter on when the duration starts, at the spell cast or at the spell discharge. Also on the matter whether i can re-think my decision to not discharge a spell into my weapon, so i can discharge it some rounds later when i feel the need.Just realised that the following situation looks kind of silly, thus perfectly illustrating my problem with your ruling:
(assuming your ruling)
1) i cast sun metal and hold it. If i accidently stumble over a polearm on the floor, the spell is discharged into it.
2) i cast sun metal and decide to hold it. Now i can not release it into my mainhand weapon as it was in my hand during a cast.
So i can not intentionally discharge spell, yet i can unintentionally. That's both ridiculous and sad at the same time :-(
As this problem is not adressed in any way by the rules, i tend to think that the least weird explanation is okay. Maybe we should request a FAQ for that?
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| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
so, FAQ request!
1) If I hold touch spell with a duration (for example Sun Metal), when will the timer start? At the moment of the casting or at the moment of discharge?
2) If I decide to hold a beneficial spell with range:touch and target:weapon, can i discharge it later into the item i was already carrying at the moment of casting?
The spell duration starts upon completing the casting of the spell. This is simply the logical conclusion as they do not tell us any differently. If it has a duration of 5 rounds, that time starts upon spell completion, and finishes exactly five rounds later (just before my turn 5 rounds later).
Also as noted, touch spells are not held in a specific body part. If a dragon casts a touch spell it can deliver it with its bite attack, a tail slap, wing, claw, whatever.
Personally I'd allow you to intentionally deliver the spell into an object you were already holding (it's not like you couldn't toss the object 2 inches into the air, thereby not be touching it at all) then catch it again to discharge into it. And the rules do not disallow an intentional discharge into an already held item - they are silent on the matter. But there is an implied "things you already have in hand or are wearing when you cast the spell don't result in an unintentional discharge".