Supernatural Abilities as Touch Attacks

[Kyoni]

Or more specifically, how to handle Weird Words from Sound Striker...

So after sifting through all rules sections that might contain infos on this subject... I'm not sure about RAW any more:

Weird Words is a supernatural ability, a ranged touch attack and it deals bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing damage.

Now the rules in the combat section talk about ranged attacks with weapons:

Combat:

Ranged Attacks: With a ranged weapon, you can shoot or throw at any target that is within the weapon's maximum range and in line of sight. The maximum range for a thrown weapon is five range increments. For projectile weapons, it is 10 range increments. Some ranged weapons have shorter maximum ranges, as specified in their descriptions.
Shooting or Throwing into a Melee: If you shoot or throw a ranged weapon at a target engaged in melee with a friendly character, you take a –4 penalty on your attack roll. Two characters are engaged in melee if they are enemies of each other and either threatens the other. (An unconscious or otherwise immobilized character is not considered engaged unless he is actually being attacked.)
If your target (or the part of your target you're aiming at, if it's a big target) is at least 10 feet away from the nearest friendly character, you can avoid the –4 penalty, even if the creature you're aiming at is engaged in melee with a friendly character.
If your target is two size categories larger than the friendly characters it is engaged with, this penalty is reduced to –2. There is no penalty for firing at a creature that is three size categories larger than the friendly characters it is engaged with.

The rules under "Cast a Spell" talk about touch attacks with spells:

Cast a Spell:

Touch Attacks: Touching an opponent with a touch spell is considered to be an armed attack and therefore does not provoke attacks of opportunity. The act of casting a spell, however, does provoke an attack of opportunity. Touch attacks come in two types: melee touch attacks and ranged touch attacks. You can score critical hits with either type of attack as long as the spell deals damage. Your opponent's AC against a touch attack does not include any armor bonus, shield bonus, or natural armor bonus. His size modifier, Dexterity modifier, and deflection bonus (if any) all apply normally.
Ranged Touch Spells in Combat: Some spells allow you to make a ranged touch attack as part of the casting of the spell. These attacks are made as part of the spell and do not require a separate action. Ranged touch attacks provoke an attack of opportunity, even if the spell that causes the attacks was cast defensively. Unless otherwise noted, ranged touch attacks cannot be held until a later turn.

The section about ranged attacks with weapons says how your attacks get penalties from shooting into melee (-4atk) and cover (+4AC).

The section about touch attacks with spells says how you use your target's touch AC and that your attack can crit on a rolled 20.
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Scorching Ray is a spell and a ray, so you get the penalties for shooting into melee and cover (rays are considered weapon-like with regards to Weapon Focus), but you target touch AC and can crit.

Acid Arrow is a spell, but apparently not a ray (so it's not weapon-like?), thus you don't get penalties for shooting into melee and cover, but you still only target touch AC and can crit.

Weird Words is not spell-like, but you might believe it being weapon-like (does bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing damage), that would mean you get the penalties for shooting into melee and cover, but you target normal AC and cannot crit (as it's supernatural = not spell-like).
Is this correct? This seems very confusing to me... did I miss a rule somewhere?

I believe RAI was all ranged touch attacks (no matter if weapon, spell, supernatural or other) should all get penalties for shooting into melee and cover, but always target touch AC and can crit on a rolled 20.
But that also means all ranged touch attacks should qualify to work with Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot (+Imroved) to partially negate the penalty for shooting into melee and cover.

[Mojorat]

I think you are over complcating it. a touch attack and a ranged touch attack are the same thing, just one happens at range and has all the penalties or benefits as a range attack.

It will target the touch ac the fact that it does bludgeoning and piercing doesnt matter. Why?? Because all touch attacks target touch ac.

[Kyoni]

Mojorat wrote:

It will target the touch ac the fact that it does bludgeoning and piercing doesnt matter. Why?? Because all touch attacks target touch ac.

So says the section about touch attacks with spells in the section about casting spells in combat... a Weird Words is (SU) and Supernatural Abilities are specifically mentioned as NOT being spells or spell-like.

I'd really love to know once and for all what rules apply to Scorching Ray, what to Acid Arrow and what to Weird Words. Clearly and without possibility of negotiation/DM-fiat.

[ShadowcatX]

The section of the book where the rules are located doesn't matter. The simple fact is, most (if not all) ranged touch attacks during the time of the core rule book were spells, so the rules for ranged touch attacks got put in with the spell section. They are still the rules for ranged touch attacks.

You are just reading too much into the "with a weapon" part of the ranged attacks rules.

[Kyoni]

@Shadowcat

do a search how many threads there are about clearing up Acid Arrow and Weird Words and whether or not to get Precise Shot... ;-)

I'm just synthesizing the questions in hopes of a Dev ruling/faq or at least some insight from somebody @Paizo, how it should be read. :-)
Unless somebody of the community can point me to an obvious rule I missed.

The entire section about ranged touch attacks keeps referring to spells... and unfortunately "Supernatural Ability" clearly says the rules about spells do not apply...

The easiest fix woul be to say that Weird Words is (Sp)... end of story.

Though it would not sort out if Acid Arrow can count as a "ray" or not.

[Pupsocket]

Kyoni, you are needlessly overcomplicating things. A ranged touch attack is a ranged touch attack. Compare Throw Splash Weapon, where "ranged touch attack" is considered self-explanatory. They all use the same rules - the only thing that's special about rays is that they don't take range penalties.

[Kyoni]

Pupsocket wrote:

Kyoni, you are needlessly overcomplicating things. A ranged touch attack is a ranged touch attack. Compare Throw Splash Weapon, where "ranged touch attack" is considered self-explanatory. They all use the same rules

If it's so obvious, what's your take on:

Acid Arrow
- shooting into melee and cover
- touch AC and crit
- can use precise shot & improved precise shot

Weird Word
- shooting into melee and cover
- touch AC and crit
- can use precise shot & improved precise shot

Because, either you get all or none...
- attacking touch AC but not getting the penalty for shooting into melee and cover is bad
- getting the penalty for shooting into melee and cover, but not being able to use precise shot & improved precise shot is bad too

But those questions keep popping up, so might as well get a final answers?

Pupsocket wrote:

the only thing that's special about rays is that they don't take range penalties.

You mixed it up: rays are weapon-like, and thus DO take ranged attack penalties. All non-ray ranged touch attack spells don't. (theoretically)

[Pupsocket]

Of course you target touch AC. Of course you take penalties for cover and shooting into melee. Of course you can offset these penalties with the proper feats. Of course you threaten a double damage crit on a 20, just like every other rolled attack that doesn't have another crit stat defined.

The only actual question about Weird Words is whether you can target the same enemy with multiple strikes. (That, and "what sick f!!+er wrote this shit? 18 separate die rolls to resolve a single god damned action at level 6").

[wraithstrike]

Dotting. A ranges touch attack does not change unless the specific ability says it is an exception. When I get home I will provide a better case.