Right now I'm brainstorming for a level 14 build and right now I'm rather fixated on trying to make the most of Merciless Butchery in combination with my handy Heartripper Blade and Bone Razor. I'm thinking focusing on Grapple is the best way to make this happen as with two grapple checks I could have someone helpless, so then swift action rip our their insides. Using a whip with Greater Whip Mastery would allow me to extend my range for doing so (one attempt to grapple, another to pull them in, a third to hogtie, a swift to rip out their still beating heart). Here's a rough build I was considering:
Slayer 10/Rogue or Ninja or Vivisectionist 4 (for increased Sneak Attack and earlier access to Merciless Butchery)
Feats:
1. Improved Unarmed
1. Whip Proficiency (or maybe get an implanted ioun stone to grant it)
3. Power Attack
5. Improved Grapple
7. Greater Grapple
9. Rapid Grappler
11. Dastardly Finish (retrained for)
13. Merciless Butchery
Slayer Talents:
2. Ranger Combat Style (one of the faith based ones provides whip stuff) - Whip Mastery
4.
6. Combat Style - Improved Whip Mastery
8.
10. Combat Style - Greater Whip Mastery
Rogue/Ninja/Alchemist Talents:
2.
4.
Anyone have any suggestions or thoughts? I'm open to pretty much anything including other class dips.
You really want Bushwhack somewhere... instant pinned is good.
A level in Snakebite Striker Brawler gives you Improved Unarmed Strike and +1d6 Sneak Attack... but there's also another good alternative...
For Rogue, take 4 levels in Belkiar Kidnapper/Scout... that grants you a reduction on the penalty to CMB to tie a pinned target, +1 CMB to grapple (making it equal to full BAB), the ability to take Improved Grapple/Greater Grapple as Rogue Talents without needing Improved Unarmed Strike, and +1 CMB to grapple when making an opposed check.
It's a pretty good deal... I'd even consider going full Belkiar Kidnapper/Scout for the Bushwhack goodness.
Of course, you want to get Surprise Maneuver in there somewhere.
Yowsa, Nice. Hm... too bad you can't squeeze stunning fist in there somehow...
"Prerequisite: Bonebreaker, Greater Grapple, Improved Grapple, Improved Unarmed Strike, Jawbreaker, Stunning Fist, Heal 12 ranks.
Benefit: If you have an opponent your size or smaller helpless or pinned, after you initiate or maintain a grapple, you can make a Stunning Fist attempt at a –5 penalty on the attack roll. If you succeed, you wrench that opponent’s neck, dealing 2d6 Strength or Dexterity damage. If the targeted ability score is reduced to 0, any remaining damage is dealt to that opponent’s Constitution score. A creature that is immune to critical hits or that has no discernible head and neck is immune to the effects of this feat."
Lol.
Anyway, I'm wondering if there's a way to skip the hogtie process, as it's a bit of a pain sometimes if there are other combatants around. Unless you've got that serial killer thing going, and you're hunting down lone targets.
Say... does rapid grappler essentially allow you to make 3 grapple maneuvers in the same round? (two from greater grapple, + 1 swift action grapple) If so, that's like the ultimate evil rodeo hoedown of doom. "Some folks call et a sleng blade, but ah call et ah Bone Razah, heah."
Hogtie in 6 seconds... maybe not so vulnerable in combat. I recently had a sap-master/grappler guy playing in one of my games (he was a slaver, it was horrible and evil and yet I couldn't help but marvel at its efficiency).
Also, I see a problem in this; without a quick draw feat, you'd need your non-whip hand free for the hogtie. Hmm... maybe if you have one of those gloves of storing for the knife. Can't remember if it's a free action draw or swift though. Regardless, until they're hogtied, they aren't helpless, and that's three different grapples. Haste? That'd work, as you might be able to convert that extra attack into the last swift action you'd need for the kill.
Based on that, I'd consider getting an animated or enchanted rope of some kind - there are materials that'd be REALLY hard to break, even for enemies with ridiculous str, and this slaver guy had several - one was a really nasty transmutation, that changed the rope into one of those animated chains/manacle (inquisitor 4 spell, I think?) Even if the guy slipped the noose, it staked him to the ground like a goat.
Anyway, the concern I have is that if you succeed in the grapple/hogtie, but you needed your swift action to do it, your opponent would have his round to break free before you could coup him - even with the free action. Gotta make sure that doesn't happen somehow.
Grapple(pass) swift (pin) grapple hogtie (pass) - but no more swift action...
So, you're splitting the grapples amidst two rounds. Either way, still pretty vicious.
Eh -- about the animated rope thing - I sorta skipped the point I was trying to make -- with good stealth, or a LOS breaker like .. for example, a multiple use item that casts Vanish/invisibility, and you could do without the whip mastery feats. It's great for that at-range grapple, no doubt, but if there were a way to shift some of the other feats around, you'd make space for something else - maybe even something like Trips or Stunning fist since you've already got improved unarmed strike. If you were caught in an off situation where you just couldn't get the whole grapple - say, you get jumped by a second guy, you could stunning fist/kill one, then start the grapple on the second, to tie up his actions. Less chance of success on the stun, but it'd be more for those odd situations that mess with the plan, than a primary choice.
As for rogue/vivisectionist/ninja... the ninja has some value but as ninja tricks go I feel like unless you invest 10 levels into it, its *meh* compared to the synergy of a rogue or alchemist.
The Alchemist mutagen, minor buffs, and such might be a better feel - and vivisectionist sort of matches the serial killer theme.
Rogue, knife master, in the event you get tired of killin' folks the same way over and over hahaha.... not to mention that whole concealed dagger/quickdraw sneak attack thing. Kinda a nice plan B if you can't just sneak right up to their back for whatever reason.
Anyway - Consider using ropes instead of the whip, and pick up the Equipment Trick:rope feat somewhere (so the hogtie penalty is -5 vs the normal -10). Your gm *may* allow you to use this feat with whips, but its best not to assume it until the GM gives the okay. Either way, enchant the *** out of that whip when you can, and/or get it made from some kind of uber material. To make room for that feat, you might need to take rogue, and use one of your talents as a feat (improved unarmed? then use the feat slot you opened up for rope tricks)
Movement of any kind slows the process down - it really shines if you can sneak up to within 5 feet of an opponent before beginning the whole process, or you start a combat round right up on them. Of course, with the whip, it won't matter if they see you coming... if you win init, move, grapple (make sure you get that weapon arm! and if they cut your whip, just break some limbs to punish them before your mourn its loss)
If you lose init - attack of opportunity - grapple. Score: bad guy 1, good guy: 0.
Anyway that's my 10 cents.
@Secret Wizard
Oh wow that Kidnapper archetype is awesome! Being able to exchange worthless Rogue Talents for actual feats I want is great, but it seems Improved Unarmed is still needed for Rapid Grappler. I love Bushwhack too, but the way the game is ran I don't know if I would actually have many chances to make use of it; it's more a kick down the door and kick ass kind of game. Surprise Manuevers is handy but the Combat Expertise part of it sucks... hmm just remembered a certain Ninja trick though:
Redirect Force (Ex) If the ninja has a feat that allows her to attempt a combat maneuver without provoking attacks of opportunity, she can choose to provoke them anyway when she performs that maneuver. If she does so and takes damage from the attack of opportunity, the ninja adds the damage as a bonus on her attack roll instead of as a penalty
We have a Life Oracle who enjoys being a healbot, so with a decent-high con score that could be a a very nice boost; just let them hit and take your bonus. Let them cut their own throat if you will :p
@Aemesh
From what I understand you can hogtie from a grapple instead of pin but you take a -10 (or -5 with Greater Whip Mastery), so it can be done it two checks if you have a high enough modifier to still succeed with the penalty. I was mistaken though in my thought about being able to do three grapples then a swift coup de grace... don't know what I was thinking when I wrote that lol.
As far as free hand issues, Greater Whip Mastery says you don't take negatives for not having a free hand if you use a whip; I figured I could go whip in one hand and then a buckler and the Bone Shard or Heartripper in that same hand.
I hadn't considered worrying about the break dc of my bindings because it seems most times people just default to using CMB or escape artist... that is a contingency I should be prepared for though so thanks for that. Hmm I wonder if a Scorpion Whip has enough metal on it be able to make if adamantine?
Good input so far guys, keep it coming!
@Secret Wizard
Oh wow that Kidnapper archetype is awesome! Being able to exchange worthless Rogue Talents for actual feats I want is great. Thanks for that. I love Bushwhack too, but the way the game is ran I don't know if I would actually have many chances to make use of it; it's more a kick down the door and kick ass kind of game. Surprise Manuevers is handy but the Combat Expertise part of it sucks... hmm just remembered a certain Ninja trick though:
Redirect Force (Ex) If the ninja has a feat that allows her to attempt a combat maneuver without provoking attacks of opportunity, she can choose to provoke them anyway when she performs that maneuver. If she does so and takes damage from the attack of opportunity, the ninja adds the damage as a bonus on her attack roll instead of as a penalty
We have a Life Oracle who enjoys being a healbot, so with a decent-high con score that could be a a very nice boost; just let them hit and take your bonus. Let them cut their own throat if you will :p
@Aemesh
From what I understand you can hogtie from a grapple instead of pin but you take a -10 (or -5 with Greater Whip Mastery), so it can be done it two checks if you have a high enough modifier to still succeed with the penalty. I was mistaken though in my thought about being able to do three grapples then a swift coup de grace... don't know what I was thinking when I wrote that lol.
As far as free hand issues, Greater Whip Mastery says you don't take negatives for not having a free hand if you use a whip; I figured I could go whip in one hand and then a buckler and the Bone Shard or Heartripper in that same hand.
I hadn't considered worrying about the break dc of my bindings because it seems most times people just default to using CMB or escape artist... that is a contingency I should be prepared for though so thanks for that. Hmm I wonder if a Scorpion Whip has enough metal on it be able to make if adamantine?
Good input so far guys, keep it coming!
Oh -- about that hogtie thing - you're dead on, the -10 is if you want to skip the pin. That said... combine the equipment trick and that kindnapper archetype, DEFINITELY get surprise maneuver. Sneak up within 10' and murderalize them in the sneak attack round: grapple is a standard action, so the bonus grapple from rapid grappler could all be performed at once during a surprise round.
"The Surprise Round
If some but not all of the combatants are aware of their opponents, a surprise round happens before regular rounds begin. In initiative order (highest to lowest), combatants who started the battle aware of their opponents each take a standard or move action during the surprise round. You can also take free actions during the surprise round. If no one or everyone is surprised, no surprise round occurs."
This sucks a little bit, unless anyone knows of a way to make a full attack action during a surpise round, in which case you could just grapple, hogtie(using greater grapple on your move action) then swift action coup.
Another object of interest - read up on greater whip mastery-- so.. combined with Equipment Trick: rope(hogtie), does that mean you'd get NO penalty on the tie-up? Both of them say "-5 instead of the usual-10" so were I gming your game, I'd totally say yes to this.
Slayer 10/Kidnapper Scout Rogue 4 - exact order is iffy to make things line up without retraining. Slayer 5/Rogue 2/Slayer 2/Rogue 2/Slayer 3? Suppose it doesn't particularly matter.
Implanted Cracked Opalescent White Pyramid Ioun: Whip now counts as a martial weapon.
Feats:
1. Iron Will
1. Combat Expertise
3. Power Attack
5. Bushwhack
7. Extra Rogue Talent - Ninja Talent: Redirect Force
9. Surprise Manuevers
11. Dastardly Finish (retrained for)
13. Merciless Butchery
@15. Extra Rogue Talent - Offensive Defense OR Rope Trick if it stacks; see if I need more offense or defense.
Slayer Talents:
2. Ranger Combat Style (one of the faith based ones provides whip stuff) - Whip Mastery
4. Weapon Training - Whip? Not a lot of good options
6. Combat Style - Improved Whip Mastery
8. Combat feat - Rapid Grappler
10. Combat Style - Greater Whip Mastery
Rogue Talents:
2. Improved Grapple
4. Greater Grapple
Hmmm we have a Cavalier... I wonder if I could convince him to get Coordinated Charge at 15 or retrain for it and I could pick up a Ring of Tactical Precision to "borrow" it. Let him do the hard job of charging me into full attack position.
Not sure if this helps, but: Snakebite Brawler? Would that be good for you at all? 1d6 SAD for a 1 level dip; can be taken to hasten your SAD progression somewhere in your build. You don't get Martial Flexibility, sadly.
Other than getting SAD faster, I can't think of any other reason to take that, though.
Not sure if this helps, but: Snakebite Brawler? Would that be good for you at all? 1d6 SAD for a 1 level dip; can be taken to hasten your SAD progression somewhere in your build. You don't get Martial Flexibility, sadly.
Other than getting SAD faster, I can't think of any other reason to take that, though.
It's definitely handy and would be a dip to consider if it wasn't for a couple of factors. At level 14 there are other things I want that I can just barely squeeze in; I need Slayer 10 for Greater Whip Mastery and I need Rogue 4 for the two grapple feats and Scout's Charge.
I think it works. The rogue talent that allows you to take a feat - I think you can only take it once, but you could just have easily used another feat/talent to take improved unarmed or combat expertise or something. Anyways, looks good except I think improved grapple requires unarmed strike? You may have to just do without one of the extra rogue talents to satisfy the gm/prereqs, but overall I think its a sound build. Nasty. I hope that Cavalier in your party isn't the squeamish type, the first time you chop down on a bloody heart, he isn't gonna turn his horse and lower the lance on you, is he?
The rogue talents from the Kidnapper archetype allow you to take Improved/Greater Grapple without improved unarmed, but I completely forgot I still needed it for Rapid Grappler... nice catch. Out you go Redirect Force. Maybe I'll see you again someday, like at 15th.
I think I'm good though besides that; I only have the talent Combat Trick once. Perhaps are you looking at the weapon focus and thinking that's a second instance (Weapon Training is its own rogue talent taken via slayer) or am I just tired and missing something obvious? Also thinking I may drop Weapon Training anyway for the slayer talent Blood Reader. It lets you know the exact HP of your studied target automatically, which could be very useful so I know whether to bother tying them up or just go for a shank to the gut to get them unconscious before the magic happens.
As far as the cavalier, I don't think he'll like it, but he's morally flexible. The healer might not like it, but hey, he can smite the hell out of my skeletons all he likes if it makes him happy.
Also another updated version, now with gear and mostly stat'd out. Yay for rolled stats and extra WBL!