Getting the most out of my claws


Advice


For Giantslayer I am playing a Half-elf Abyssal Bloodrager with the Rageshaper archetype. My DM as ruled that because the only kind of natural attack I have is claws I add 1.5 Str to my attacks. By 8th level when I am raging my claws will be doing 4d6+10 damage without power attack. Problem is when I get beyond 11th level my claws will fall behind due to lack of attacks. How do I fix this? I was looking at a monk (Martial Artist) dip and Feral Combat Training because Flurry works off Monk levels plus BAB. I was told this is a weak idea. How would this be better fixed? I really don't want to go from 1.5 Str to 0.5 Str by grabbing a weapon...and any weapon I use needs to allow use of my arms. Also conceptually avoiding any other natural attacks...The only other one I want isn't allowed (Tail). How would ya'll go about fixing this but keeping the concept of feral elf man tearing orcs to shreds?


First, you have a super nice GM giving you 1.5 str on claws, normally you'd only have 1 str with your claws.

Can a rageshaper be a primalist? If you grab rage powers to get a bit and a gore attack.


Well I will have to ask about the primalist. Only thing from that is does Rageshaper apply to those natural attacks too? And it will bring my claws down to 1 Str because I will have multiple natural attacks. Looking at getting a STR increase at 11th level with greater eldritch heritage Orc.


At 11th level, fix it with a greatsword.

Yeah, I know, you won't be shredding those orcs with your bare hands (claws) anymore. But you'll get your third iterative attack and you can enchant your sword and it will get more critical hits so it will likely do as much damage or more, assuming you can hit 3 times with it (the 3rd iterative is often dubious since the attack bonus is so low).

How are you doing 4d6 damage with your claws, anyway? Or was that counting both claws (2d6 per claw)? If you're actually doing 4d6+10 with each claw, that's impressive and I'm curious to know where the extra damage dice come from, but if you're only doing 2d6+5 per claw then I'm very unimpressed (come on, raging and with a x1.5 STR mod you should be way better than +5).

In any case, a level 11 melee character could/should easily be doing at least 2d6+15 or maybe even more than that with each swing of his greatsword, and that's without even trying very hard (and not including power attack). So 6d6+45 (average 66) sounds like a nice upgrade over 8d6+20 (average 48) and it's way better than 4d6+10 if that was a total for two claws, and you'll get 2x the number of crits with the greatsword too. Heck, even on those rounds where your 3rd iterative misses, you'll still do 4d6+30 (average 44) which is almost the same as your claw damage.

Not in character with the half-elf with claws? Yeah, I know, but sometimes the little monsters gotta grow up and learn to use silverware like a big boy instead of playing with their food with their hands... :)


Yeah, there is no fixing this within your limitations. The key to a natural attack build is just to have a crap ton of them; a good benchmark is to have 2 more natural attacks than you do iteratives. Kinda hard to do with a half-elf though, it's better with a race that naturally gets a bite attack like half-orc or tiefling.


Rageshaper increases the damage by one step so from 1d8 to 2d6 then improved natural attack to 3d6 then demonic bulk enlarges me so 4d6 after my 11th level feat it'll be closer to 4d6+18 with greater bloodrage. At level 12 it'll be 20...before power attack or magic items


So with that why is the monk dip for feral combat a terrible idea? It'll slow down my rage by 1 level but I get more attacks and add debuffs to them. It'll shore up my will save at the cost of delayed rage and 1 hp


Ask your GM if he will allow the Multiattack feat. That will grant you an additional attack per claw with the standard -5 penalty towards secondary attacks.


All I thought multi attack did was decrease the -5 for secondary attacks to a -2


As a Half-Elf you have a free Skill Focus feat, which you could put into Skill Focus (stealth). This allows you to qualify for Eldritch Heritage (Ghoul Bloodline).

Now you can force opponents to make a save on every successful claw attack or become paralyzed for 1d4+1 rounds. Even if your CHA isn't very high the sheer number of saves you could force by using Feral Combat Training with your claws and adding on Haste, etc. could be pretty valuable, especially if you pick up Pounce.

At higher levels if you have enough CHA you can even grab Improved Eldritch Heritage for a ton of free rounds of Haste per day, freeing you up to take those boots that give Greater Heroism instead of the normal Boots of Speed.


Oakbreaker wrote:
All I thought multi attack did was decrease the -5 for secondary attacks to a -2

Yeah, you're right. I just rechecked it... Not sure what I was thinking there.

Grand Lodge

Faelyn wrote:
Ask your GM if he will allow the Multiattack feat. That will grant you an additional attack per claw with the standard -5 penalty towards secondary attacks.

That's only for animal companions off of the druid chart, multiattack itself doesn't do that.

Also, your GM giving you one and a half strength is a house rule.

My bloodrager is similar to your build but is a boar-skinwalker that also has gore and hoof attacks. And primalist does work with rageshaper. At level eight and twelve I selected the beast totems (and the boar charge) for my four rage powers. Which gives me pounce.


Faelyn wrote:
Ask your GM if he will allow the Multiattack feat. That will grant you an additional attack per claw with the standard -5 penalty towards secondary attacks.

Except that's not actually what that feat does.


Is there anything else I need to worry about to get the flurry of claws


I had a thematically similar tiefling ninja that used claws. Wanted to stick with the theme of tearing things apart with my bare hands. What I eventually ended up doing was going with Improved Unarmed Strike and using the claws as secondary attacks. Keeps the claws in the rotation, and you just describe it as tossing in some elbows and knee strikes while you're at it.

Scarab Sages

Instead of dipping monk, dip brawler. Brawler's Flurry + Feral Combat Training will allow you to make a Flurry with your Natural Weapons, but unlike the monk dip, Brawler's Flurry allows you to actually gain the TWF feat in a flurry instead of acting as if using TWF. This means if you take Improved TWF as a feat, you can use that with your flurry, meaning you only need two levels of brawler.
Mutagenic Mauler will give you a mutagen to stack with rage, or Snakebite Striker will give you sneak attack. Either way, the IUS will unlock style feats, which will work with your claws thanks to FCT.


Reach weapon.

Scarab Sages

Boss Savage wrote:
Reach weapon.

Will do nothing to help claws. It's great for a bite, but the reach weapon occupies both hands, which means you can't make claw attacks too even on AoOs.


With dipping brawler it takes 2 levels instead of one. Which will slow me down alot more not to mention the BAB from bloodrager doesn't increase the attacks in the flurry like it does with monk, or does BAB from outside sources stack for Brawler Flurry as well? The ability to ignore INT for combat expertise is nice but I don't want to give up too much on the key abilities of my primary class.

Scarab Sages

Brawlers are Full BAB all the time. Brawler's Flurry is just Two Weapon Fighting. The attacks are based off whatever your BAB is.


Well the question of feral combat training is does it grant the additional attacks if they aren't Flurry? Because if they don't 1 level monk is better. A monks flurry adds his level plus BAB from other classes to the total flurry bonus and attacks...There isn't a similar FAQ/errata for Brawler's Flurry because it treats you as having those feats by brawler level...


For Monks and Brawlers you can't flurry and then add normal natural attacks to the end of that. You also can't do a normal iterative full attack with natural attacks, even with FCT.

For a monks' flurry since they are normally a 3/4 bab class, when they flurry their bab becomes full. So a lv4 monk/fighter 2 usually has a bab of 5. But on a flurry the monk counts at full so it's 4+2 for 6 bab, thus they get an extra attack out of it.

For a brawler's flurry since they are normally full bab, they stay full bab. So a lv4 brawler/fighter 2 usually has a bab of 6. But on a flurry it's the same so it's still 6, thus they get the three attacks as normal for TWF.


Yes but FCB applies to flurry for monks...since the irative attacks don't apply and the language for monks flurry is different than brawlers flurry if I dip at 11th level I will get 5 attacks via dip of 1 monk vs what reads as 4 attacks via brawler 2. I am not suggesting flurry then claws but rather flurry with claws with FCB since flurry works with it and irative attacks don't.

Scarab Sages

You are misunderstanding the flurry bonus FAQ.

A monk flurry treats BAB as monk level, when a monk is usually a 3/4 BAB class. The FAQ was needed because a multi-class Monk would loose any BAB gained from other classes. That BAB is used to determine iterative attacks and to hit only. It does not actually count towards adding to the off hand attacks granted at Monk 8. Flurry of Blows also lets you make an extra attack as if you were using two weapon fighting. The Brawler's Flurry actually gives you Two Weapon Fighting while making a Flurry. This means if you take Improved Two weapon fighting with an actual feat, it will work in your Flurry.


You're not understanding the Monk's flurry. With monk1 or brawler 2 at lv 11 you'll have the same number of attacks. The extra attacks from monk are gained at lv1, 8 and 15. And you can use them in a brawler's flurry because they are monk weapons and you can do it with a monk weapon.


My bloodrager doesn't have the dex to get all the Two-Weapon Fighting feats to improve brawlers flurry. Monk gets it written into the flurry without the feats. Yes brawler gets the 2wf feats in it but because of that I will not be getting the bonus attacks beyond normal two weapon fighting.

A monk using flurry treats his BAB from monk levels as equal to his monk level. He still adds BAB from other sources (such as other classes or racial Hit Dice) normally to this total.

FAQ
The monk rules for flurry of blows state: "For the purpose of these attacks, the monk'sbase attack bonus is equal to his monk level." How does this interact with BAB from class levels and racial Hit Dice? Does a multiclassed fighter 19/monk 1 flurry as if his BAB were only +1?
So a fighter 19/monk 1 has a normal BAB of +19. When he flurries, he treats his monk BAB as +1 (for his 1 level of monk) and still gets BAB +19 from his fighter levels, for a total flurry BAB of +20.

Everything on the brawler is just saying it has the feats. Which is great but why slow down my rage for 2 levels for 1 extra attack when I can just slow down by 1 and get 2 extra attacks


At lv 11 you'll have three iterative attacks (since the monk counts as full for flurry) and then you'll have 1 extra attack as if you were using TWF. The 5th attack comes from being monk8, nothing to do with bab for that 5th attack. As such you'll only have 4 attacks with the monk.

Scarab Sages

You don't get 2 extra attacks.

You only get one extra attack as if using Two Weapon Fighting.

A Monk 1/Fighter 19 has +18/+18/+13/+8/+3 on a flurry. The Second extra attack is granted at Monk 8, and the third is granted at monk 15. Those extra attacks are granted by Monk level, not by BAB.


Ok then if that's the case, why would I slow down by 2 levels for the same thing I get by giving up one

Scarab Sages

Because you can then add ITWF via feats. But if you don't have the dex for it, I agree it's not worth it.

You might be better served by simply ignoring monk and brawler and using Alter Self or Monstrous Physique to add more natural attacks.


Brawler can get a mutagen and animal companion or the flexible feat ability. Higher hit die. there are reasons, not that it's better than monk and smaller dip, but there are reasons to go brawler instead.


To be honest I am not even going to qualify for TWF feats only one that might be useful is twd for the extra AC.

Aside from that I don't think that there is any reason conceptually to take brawler over monk mostly because of rage loss


The plan is to focus purely on the claws and playing up the whole feral beast man. Currently I plan to take either eldritch heritage Orc so I can get the Str boost or ghoul to get paralysis claws. If I go monk I will abandon my armor and focus on natural armor and items that increase my wis/cha. I believe we will be reaching 20+ so there is some dip room it's just not going to be easy because either way I am stalling a plus 6 to my rage str.


what level are you starting at?


also even with your GM houserule for 1.5 str on your claws, that will go down to 1 when you flurry and power attack will go down as well, so you're only gaining the base claw damage if everything hits. Unless your GM houserules this as well to do 1.5 str for claws in a flurry.


Level 1 we just hit 2 but I like having a clear plan for the character


Imbicatus wrote:
Boss Savage wrote:
Reach weapon.
Will do nothing to help claws. It's great for a bite, but the reach weapon occupies both hands, which means you can't make claw attacks too even on AoOs.

Wasn't my point. Use (say) a glaive to handle enemies at range, when they step in past its reach drop it and use the claws. Best of both worlds, especially if you already have the bite rage power. It works for Barbazu.


Bump because people have a whole bunch of good ideas for natural attackers with many attacks so why is 2 so hard?


2 isn't hard. 2 is just far less effective. Nothing we say can suddenly make only 2 claws super effective compared to getting more attacks or getting a proper weapon.

For Flurry of Claws you'd need Weapon Focus (claws) and Improved Unarmed Strike to take Feral Combat Training but dipping one level of monk will only ever get you one more attack (over a weapon). You don't use the Flurry of Blows table for your BAB from other sources, you only use it for your levels in monk (and then add your BAB from other sources, which is where primary iterative attacks come in). You never get the off-hand iteratives that flurry gives at higher levels because that's part of Flurry, not part of BAB. Even then taking all of this only gives you iteratives with your claws and restricts your damage to 1x Strength instead of 1.5x Strength (part of Flurry). You know what's better than another claw at -5? Another natural attack at full BAB. Another weapon attack at -5 that costs half as much to enchant as an amulet of mighty fists and can be 2-handed for 1.5x Strength. Just using your claws normally for the apparently 1.5x Strength you get with each. That's why the suggestions have been to either find more attacks or accept that your damage will be less than if you just grabbed a big sword to use. At the very least pick up a bite or something.


Wait would 1 level of primal/Feral Hunter work? It would give me 3 evo points to use on myself with limitless durations. So improve damage/bleeding attack/ pounce. It will be 5 do + 1.5 Str +1d6 bleed per claw

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Advice / Getting the most out of my claws All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.
Recent threads in Advice