Swashbuckler Finesse and Weapons with multiple damage types

[B. A. Robards-Debardot]

If I used Weapon Versatility to cause a rapier to do bludgeoning damage would I still qualify for swashbuckler abilities that require a piercing weapon?

Or since Slashing Grace requires a slashing weapon, would it apply the dex to damage when I use a Sibat to deal Piercing Damage?

[Koshimo]

don't quote me here but i think you would be able to use weapon versatility to overcome DR or w/e other purpose because the weapon is still a piercing or slashing weapon in the first place it doesnt change the weapon type just modifies the type of damage you are doing

precise strike for example says while wielding a 1 handed piercing weapon not that you are actually doing piercing damage with the weapon

its a thin line but i think it works

[kestral287]

My understanding is that weapons have their assigned types as a basic function of what they are. A rapier is a piercing weapon by virtue of being a rapier. Even if you use it to deal bludgeoning damage, it's a rapier. And because it's a rapier, it works with Swashbuckler stuff.

Now, the corollary is that a scimitar that does piercing damage because you used Weapon Versatility on it should not benefit from Swashbuckler stuff and the like.

It is worth noting that the Pommel Strike Deed takes the time to spell out specifically that the attack (which uses a one-handed piercing weapon to deal bludgeoning damage) still works with Swashbuckler class features. Take that as you will.

[Skylancer4]

Generally speaking, things are what they are, if you are adjusting/changing them; you are doing exactly that. You are changing them for a purpose/reason and doing so comes with benefits and drawbacks.

Now if you could come up with a way to add the damage type, you'd be set. As it would be both types and so would fulfill the requirements.

[Koshimo]

Skylancer4 wrote:

Generally speaking, things are what they are, if you are adjusting/changing them; you are doing exactly that. You are changing them for a purpose/reason and doing so comes with benefits and drawbacks.

Now if you could come up with a way to add the damage type, you'd be set. As it would be both types and so would fulfill the requirements.

my argument to that is like i said above the swashbuckler abilities state that you need to be wielding a piercing weapon nowhere does it actually say you need to be dealing piercing damage

[B. A. Robards-Debardot]

Koshimo wrote:

my argument to that is like i said above the swashbuckler abilities state that you need to be wielding a piercing weapon nowhere does it actually say you need to be dealing piercing damage

Koshimo, I like your wielding vs doing damage argument.

[B. A. Robards-Debardot]

kestral287, I hadn't seen the Pommel Strike Deed Feat before. Hmmm, compared to the Weapon Versatility Feat, Pommel Strike has the following negatives:
1) only adds bludgeoning damage
2) costs one panache point per attack
3) you don't get the crit range
4) you don't get the damage dice
5) standard action designation means only one attack per round

The only benefits seem to be:
1) explicitly works with swashbuckler finesse/precise strike
2) free combat maneuver

So reading it, it looks like a copy of the Gunslinger's Pistol Whip Deed with panache subbed in for grit. It feels like the main purpose is the free combat maneuver, as the panache cost is too expensive to be used as your sole source of bludgeoning damage if you were attempting to overcome DR.

[Komoda]

That is not a valid argument. The type of damage you are doing is the type of weapon it is for that attack.

If you use Tiger Style to make slashing attacks, you are not using a bludgeoning weapon, even though your fists started out that way.

[Gwen Smith]

I can see reasonable arguments for both sides of this question. It might be worth an FAQ.

Also, when considering this question, remember to be consistent: If the underlying damage type doesn't change when changing it would hurt the player, then it also shouldn't change when changing it would help the player.

Suppose you decide to rule that Weapon Versatility doesn't change the underlying damage type so that Swashbuckler Finesse will still work. Then using a style feat to change the your unarmed strike to piercing or slashing also won't change the underlying damage type, so your duelist or swashbuckler abilities can't work with unarmed strike.

Or vice versa: if you think Snake Style should let you use your unarmed strike as a duelist's weapon, then Weapon Versatility should also change the underlying damage type so it won't work with your Swashbuckler Finesse.

[B. A. Robards-Debardot]

Komoda, I like your argument as well. It relies on the RAW

PRD (emphasis mine): wrote:

Type: Weapons are classified according to the type of damage they deal: B for bludgeoning, P for piercing, or S for slashing. Some monsters may be resistant or immune to attacks from certain types of weapons.

I see the argument then takes this to mean that Weapon Versatility should update the weapon for the user, and mechanically slap "You may treat the weapon as a B or P or S weapon".

I know that when I had a similar question about the effort designation (light, one-handed, two-handed) it seems the majority of people find the weapon table inviolate, the weapons properties listed therein to be definitional and the text above to be fluff not crunch. So the weapon isn't updated and remains the same for all characters.

Why I like Koshimo's argument better is it sidesteps that discussion. If your weapon is a piercing weapon (capable of dealing piercing damage or definitional based on the table) it qualifies whether or not you're dealing piercing damage at the time.

[Imbicatus]

Komoda wrote:

That is not a valid argument. The type of damage you are doing is the type of weapon it is for that attack.

If you use Tiger Style to make slashing attacks, you are not using a bludgeoning weapon, even though your fists started out that way.

This. it's clearly intended for changing the damage type to piercing to enable precise strike.

Paizo Blog wrote:

During the playtest, feedback granted us a wealth of information that allowed us to fine-tune the class. We wanted the class to be true to its roots, but to have enough room for players to create their own take on this daring warrior classic. To this end, we made it relatively easy to gain Dexterity modifier damage and benefit classes nifty precise strike precision damage deed with a variety of weapons through the class itself, by way of multiclassing, and through feats (try the Snake Style feat from Ultimate Combat with the precise strike deed to get your swashbuckler/kung fu fusion on).