http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/additionalMonsters/primate.html
I am not too familiar with swarms so when I saw that a swarm of monkeys was sized tiny when a regular monkey above it was sized small, I got confused.
Is it... is it that each individual monkey is tiny? Then how big is the swarm itself if that is the case?
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/monsters/creatureTypes.html#swarm-subtyp e
This description on swarms says, "A swarm of Tiny creatures consists of 300 nonflying creatures or 1,000 flying creatures." Monkeys aren't flying so... that is 300 monkeys if my assumption above is correct? If my assumption above is correct then how many squares do 300 tiny monkeys take up.
If my assumption above is wrong though please help me to understand this.
A swarm is always composed of 4 squares. These need not be in a 2 by 2 square formation, the swarm is shapeable and can assume a new shape with each move. The only restriction is that its squares remain contiguous. So basically, at any one time the swarm can form any one "Tetris-shape".
A swarm is always composed of 4 squares. These need not be in a 2 by 2 square formation, the swarm is shapeable and can assume a new shape with each move. The only restriction is that its squares remain contiguous. So basically, at any one time the swarm can form any one "Tetris-shape".
Awesome thanks.
Wow three hundred monkeys all in four squares, interesting.
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateMagic/spells/madMonkeys.html
Wow three hundred monkeys all in four squares, interesting.
You should see the barrel they come in.
Wow three hundred monkeys all in four squares, interesting.You should see the barrel they come in.
Not THAT sounds less interesting and more fun.
A swarm is always composed of 4 squares. These need not be in a 2 by 2 square formation, the swarm is shapeable and can assume a new shape with each move. The only restriction is that its squares remain contiguous. So basically, at any one time the swarm can form any one "Tetris-shape".
Where's the rule for this? The closest thing I recall is that they can fit through any space that their component creatures can fit through. Aside from that, I thought they were always represented as 2x2 square swarms on the battle grid. Any variations in shape would come from multiple contiguous 2x2 swarms, not from a single swarm changing its shape.
Am I wrong?
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Bolded relevant text regarding re-shaping
A swarm of Tiny creatures consists of 300 nonflying creatures or 1,000 flying creatures. A swarm of Diminutive creatures consists of 1,500 nonflying creatures or 5,000 flying creatures. A swarm of Fine creatures consists of 10,000 creatures, whether they are flying or not. Swarms of nonflying creatures include many more creatures than could normally fit in a 10-foot square based on their normal space, because creatures in a swarm are packed tightly together and generally crawl over each other and their prey when moving or attacking. Larger swarms are represented by multiples of single swarms. The area occupied by a large swarm is completely shapeable, though the swarm usually remains in contiguous squares.
Swarm Traits: A swarm has no clear front or back and no discernable anatomy, so it is not subject to critical hits or flanking. A swarm made up of Tiny creatures takes half damage from slashing and piercing weapons. A swarm composed of Fine or Diminutive creatures is immune to all weapon damage. Reducing a swarm to 0 hit points or less causes it to break up, though damage taken until that point does not degrade its ability to attack or resist attack. Swarms are never staggered or reduced to a dying state by damage. Also, they cannot be tripped, grappled, or bull rushed, and they cannot grapple an opponent.
A swarm is immune to any spell or effect that targets a specific number of creatures (including single-target spells such as disintegrate), with the exception of mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, morale effects, patterns, and phantasms) if the swarm has an Intelligence score and a hive mind. A swarm takes half again as much damage (+50%) from spells or effects that affect an area, such as splash weapons and many evocation spells.
Swarms made up of Diminutive or Fine creatures are susceptible to high winds, such as those created by a gust of wind spell. For purposes of determining the effects of wind on a swarm, treat the swarm as a creature of the same size as its constituent creatures. A swarm rendered unconscious by means of nonlethal damage becomes disorganized and dispersed, and does not reform until its hit points exceed its nonlethal damage.
Swarm Attack: Creatures with the swarm subtype don't make standard melee attacks. Instead, they deal automatic damage to any creature whose space they occupy at the end of their move, with no attack roll needed. Swarm attacks are not subject to a miss chance for concealment or cover. A swarm's statistics block has “swarm” in the Melee entry, with no attack bonus given. The amount of damage a swarm deals is based on its Hit Dice, as shown below.
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A swarm is always composed of 4 squares. These need not be in a 2 by 2 square formation, the swarm is shapeable and can assume a new shape with each move. The only restriction is that its squares remain contiguous. So basically, at any one time the swarm can form any one "Tetris-shape".Where's the rule for this? The closest thing I recall is that they can fit through any space that their component creatures can fit through. Aside from that, I thought they were always 2x2 square swarms. Any variations in shape would come from multiple contiguous 2x2 swarms.
Am I wrong?
yes an no.. from the PRD:
" A single swarm occupies a square (if it is made up of nonflying creatures) or a cube (of flying creatures) 10 feet on a side, but its reach is 0 feet, like its component creatures."
but
"Larger swarms are represented by multiples of single swarms. The area occupied by a large swarm is completely shapeable, though the swarm usually remains in contiguous squares."
so single swarms are supposed to be a 10x10 square, but as soon as you have more than one swarm, it could a 5x40 line.... I have seen it be a common houserule that a single swarm was shapable as well
I thought so, Cpt_kirstov. A single swarm being able to shape itself to almost always exactly cover every PC would be too powerful in my opinion.
A swarm is always composed of 4 squares. These need not be in a 2 by 2 square formation, the swarm is shapeable and can assume a new shape with each move. The only restriction is that its squares remain contiguous. So basically, at any one time the swarm can form any one "Tetris-shape".Where's the rule for this? The closest thing I recall is that they can fit through any space that their component creatures can fit through. Aside from that, I thought they were always 2x2 square swarms. Any variations in shape would come from multiple contiguous 2x2 swarms.
Am I wrong?
yes an no.. from the PRD:
" A single swarm occupies a square (if it is made up of nonflying creatures) or a cube (of flying creatures) 10 feet on a side, but its reach is 0 feet, like its component creatures."
but
"Larger swarms are represented by multiples of single swarms. The area occupied by a large swarm is completely shapeable, though the swarm usually remains in contiguous squares."
so single swarms are supposed to be a 10x10 square, but as soon as you have more than one swarm, it could a 5x40 line.... I have seen it be a common houserule that a single swarm was shapable as well
I was planning on involving two swarms for it anyways.
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I thought so, Cpt_kirstov. A single swarm being able to shape itself to almost always exactly cover every PC would be too powerful in my opinion.
I have seen some GMs mix the two rules, allowing a single swarm to "tetris", even in organized play. It was an extremely powerful tactic by a non-intelligent creature(s) that increases the challenge greatly.
It was an extremely powerful tactic by a non-intelligent creature(s) that increases the challenge greatly.
In fairness, it's not the sort of tactic that requires intellect. The bugs might want to stay close to the rest of the swarm, but they're still going to go after whatever they can reach, so the swarm contorts a little.
I thought so, Cpt_kirstov. A single swarm being able to shape itself to almost always exactly cover every PC would be too powerful in my opinion.I have seen some GMs mix the two rules, allowing a single swarm to "tetris", even in organized play. It was an extremely powerful tactic by a non-intelligent creature(s) that increases the challenge greatly.
Well these are monkeys, they are pretty intelligent?
Don't be silly. Their Intelligence is 2, same as chickens and sheep.
And it could also be a simple carryover of 3.5 rules to PF. Some GM's allow weapon energy damage and torches affect fine/diminutive swarms as well...even in PFS.
Some GMs do a lot of things with swarms that make no sense. I've talked to guys who said my alchemist's fire can could only inflict 1 point of damage when thrown at a worm swarm, for instance. Because f&&+ martials.
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And it could also be a simple carryover of 3.5 rules to PF. Some GM's allow weapon energy damage and torches affect fine/diminutive swarms as well...even in PFS.
Torches do deal 1 point of damage to fine/diminutive swarms. Not the 1d3 they did in 3.5, but still damage.
And they do take energy damage from weapons. The d6 flaming damage isn't weapon damage - it's fire damage.
Some GMs do a lot of things with swarms that make no sense. I've talked to guys who said my alchemist's fire can could only inflict 1 point of damage when thrown at a worm swarm, for instance. Because f!@! martials.
They would be correct - the swarm can't be targeted by the alchemist's fire (because it targets a single target and swarms are immune to effects targeting a single target). The splash damage should get them.
Honestly, this is why I hate swarms. Swarms of larger creatures you can at least smash with a hammer or mace. Swarms of smaller creatures mean everyone stands back and the blasting caster or the negative energy channeler takes them out.
That idea's largely been discredited, but like I said, can of worms. A bit tired of debating it.
And it could also be a simple carryover of 3.5 rules to PF. Some GM's allow weapon energy damage and torches affect fine/diminutive swarms as well...even in PFS.Torches do deal 1 point of damage to fine/diminutive swarms. Not the 1d3 they did in 3.5, but still damage.
Where's the rule for this one? That aside, I'm not standing next to a swarm in the hopes of doing 1 point of damage. Let the blaster deal with them while I outrun the dwarf.
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Where's the rule for this one? That aside, I'm not standing next to a swarm in the hopes of doing 1 point of damage. Let the blaster deal with them while I outrun the dwarf.And it could also be a simple carryover of 3.5 rules to PF. Some GM's allow weapon energy damage and torches affect fine/diminutive swarms as well...even in PFS.Torches do deal 1 point of damage to fine/diminutive swarms. Not the 1d3 they did in 3.5, but still damage.
A torch burns for 1 hour, shedding normal light in a 20-foot radius and increasing the light level by one step for an additional 20 feet beyond that area (darkness becomes dim light and dim light becomes normal light). A torch does not increase the light level in normal light or bright light. If a torch is used in combat, treat it as a one-handed improvised weapon that deals bludgeoning damage equal to that of a gauntlet of its size, plus 1 point of fire damage.
It takes too long to deal with normally - but it works great if your party's caster has color spray and the swarm isn't vermin.
And nothing says that the "combat" it's talking about has to be melee. It's already improvised - you might as well chuck it at them. That's why most of my level 1 characters have a dozen torches in their backpack. (Also - why would the torch go out after it's thrown? Not RAW - but arguably it'd sit in the middle of the swarm and keep doing damage unless the swarm moves away.)