So in an upcoming session, my party will run into a gargantuan sized dragon capable of casting 6th level spells. I have yet to redo the dragon's spell list, but with the recent Big Creatures and "Centered on You" FAQ, I'm most likely going to give the dragon the Antimagic field spell and having not used it before, I seek a number of clarifications/confirmations from my fellow forum users. I recognize that a dragon with DR 20/magic who eliminates all magical properties from attacks before they strike him it going to be nasty! But depending on what of his own abilities he can still use, it may not be that bad. (Also, this will be the last dragon that the party fights in this adventure, even the last one they fight with me as GM. I'll be moving away for a new job in 5 months, so let's go out with a bang!)
1) The Arcane Strike feat should overcome the dragon's DR XX/magic, right?
2) Are there any other means are there by which to overcome this DR?
3) The Mage's Disjunction spell references having a chance to destroy an Antimagic Field. There are no other spells that overcome an Antimagic Field, correct?
4) A Barbarian's Spell Sunder rage power should work, right? (By a strictly RAW reading, one could argue that since an Antimagic Field is on a creature, the Barbarian must close within reach, which likely brings him into the antimagic field and thus suppresses the rage power... I probably wouldn't make that ruling, but bonus points for discussing this corner case.)
5) Are there any other class features or abilities that could unexpectedly bipass/eliminate/adversely effect an Antimagic Field or the occupant of it?
(The next series of questions tries to clear up exactly what a Dragon can or cannot do while the Antimagic Field is active.)
6) Can a dragon use ANY of his normally supernatural abilties and have their effects extend out of his Antimagic Field?
7) His breath weapon, for example? (If not, could the dragon extend it's head outside of the Antimagic Field and throw the breath weapon or would the Antimagic Field "centered on him" follow his head and thus always be within the area of his own Antimagic Field?)
8) What about an ability such as a Blue Dragon's Storm Breath? Could the dragon create the cloud with the Antimagic Field up and then call down bolts?
9) How about the same Blue Dragon's Mirage ability?
Note that I'm specifically interested in answers to the above questions that are not class specific, save spellcasting, let's assume we have access to the Wizard List and the Cleric list. I'm also more interested in answers and ideas that come from the core line of rulebooks (excluding Mythic Adventures). All that said, feel free to give answers that go beyond these restrictions - I am certainly not the first person to think of Dragons and Antimagic Fields and certainly won't be the last GM to throw one at a party, so it's likely this thread will be found in the future with some people having the same questions as myself.
1) Normally DR/magic would be bypassed by Arcane Strike but DR 20/Magic is SU so is gone in an AMF.
With that said, while not explicitly stated I would also rule Arcane Strike to be magic so wouldn't work in an AMF.
2) The AMF shuts off DR/Magic
3) Aroden's Spellbane is a 9th level spell that provides immunity to AMF. (Inner Sea Magic p52)
4) Spell Sunder is (su) so will not work.
5) Not that I am aware of.
6) No, there are no rules in the game to model your 'bodypart' being X distance from your area. The GM shouldn't house rule something like this either since it is an attempt to bypass the intent of the AMF.
7-8) No, it is SU. See 6.
9) No, it is SU.
In short, the dragon has no special abilities and is reduced to being a very heavily armored flying death machine.
The biggest problem for PCs is going to be overcoming it's very high AC (natural armor is still a thing) and doing damage to it without the use of weapon enhancement bonuses, buffs, or spells.
If the player has a reach of 15' or greater then they should be able to retain most of their bonuses (weapon bonuses could be argued either way).
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
In short, the encounter becomes very boring, with neither party having access to their more interesting and flashy tactics.
IMO, not "going out with a bang".
1) Normally DR/magic would be bypassed by Arcane Strike but DR 20/Magic is SU so is gone in an AMF.
Can you give a citing for this? In the Universal Monster Rules, damage reduction is listed as "(Ex or Su)". The additional dragon rules list a dragon's damage reducion as "Damage Reduction: Dragons gain damage reduction as they age..." So why would it be Su as opposed to Ex? Not that I have a good reason to make it Ex...
With that said, while not explicitly stated I would also rule Arcane Strike to be magic so wouldn't work in an AMF.
I think RAW Arcane Strike would work, but RAI, probably not.
3) Aroden's Spellbane is a 9th level spell that provides immunity to AMF. (Inner Sea Magic p52)
Good to know, thanks.
4) Spell Sunder is (su) so will not work.
But what if the Spell Sunder is used against the barrier when you encounter it, rather than entering it? I honestly have no clue how to rule this.
6) No, there are no rules in the game to model your 'bodypart' being X distance from your area. The GM shouldn't house rule something like this either since it is an attempt to bypass the intent of the AMF.
I agree with you about houseruling, I'm just trying to make sure that I'm understanding the RAW/RAI of Antimagic Field.
9) No, it is SU.
I just wasn't sure if an ability that could be projected outward could be sustained after Antimagic Field was cast.
In short, the dragon has no special abilities and is reduced to being a very heavily armored flying death machine.
Of course it's still deadly - Greater Vital Strike is nasty for dragons.
The biggest problem for PCs is going to be overcoming it's very high AC (natural armor is still a thing) and doing damage to it without the use of weapon enhancement bonuses, buffs, or spells.
Yeah, but a Dragon who just jumps in the middle and full attacks doesn't sound like a very interesting encounter.
If the player has a reach of 15' or greater then they should be able to retain most of their bonuses (weapon bonuses could be argued either way).
This would indeed help - I wouldn't let them use the weapon bonuses, but other buffs would help as normal.
1) DR/Magic being related to age has nothing to do with it being EX or SU. After all, a Dragon has other age related abilities which are clearly SU (such as a Breath Weapon).
As to whether it is EX or SU. Back in 3.5 they had that clearly defined but it was another thing that Pathfinder doesn't clearly define. 3.5 Rules Compendium p41 had it defined as:
Supernatural: Aligned (Good etc), Magic, Cold Iron, Silver, and Epic
Extraordinary: Bludgeoning, Piercing, Slashing, and DR/-
While Pathfinder is not 3.5 there is nothing in PF to contradict this information and with no other information being provided it is the only guideline we have.
4) I would say Spell Sunder does not work, for a couple reasons.
One, in order to sunder the creature's spell effect you have to be able to attack the creature and this means attacking into the AMF. The SU ability wont work inside the AMF.
Two, Spell Sunder uses the word "dispelled" and AMF cannot be dispelled.
1) DR/Magic being related to age has nothing to do with it being EX or SU. After all, a Dragon has other age related abilities which are clearly SU (such as a Breath Weapon).
As to whether it is EX or SU. Back in 3.5 they had that clearly defined but it was another thing that Pathfinder doesn't clearly define. 3.5 Rules Compendium p41 had it defined as:
Supernatural: Aligned (Good etc), Magic, Cold Iron, Silver, and Epic
Extraordinary: Bludgeoning, Piercing, Slashing, and DR/-While Pathfinder is not 3.5 there is nothing in PF to contradict this information and with no other information being provided it is the only guideline we have.
Good points here - I agree, it should not work. Whether Thanks for the citation.
4) I would say Spell Sunder does not work, for a couple reasons.
One, in order to sunder the creature's spell effect you have to be able to attack the creature and this means attacking into the AMF. The SU ability wont work inside the AMF.
Two, Spell Sunder uses the word "dispelled" and AMF cannot be dispelled.
Good points here too and with my complete ignorance of spell sunder, I'll agree to this.
What about the bite attack with 15ft reach? Does it take the amf with it (thus the items of the defending creature don't work) or is the amf limited to every corner of occupated space plus 10ft?
What about the bite attack with 15ft reach? Does it take the amf with it (thus the items of the defending creature don't work) or is the amf limited to every corner of occupated space plus 10ft?
The AMF is only in the 15ft from dragon's space. There is nothing that says your spell radius increases due to reach, or (beyond a touch spell) that it is equal to your reach. Think of the bite similar to shooting an arrow. The target of the arrow still has all his effects, even if the arrow was shot from within an AMF.
What about the bite attack with 15ft reach? Does it take the amf with it (thus the items of the defending creature don't work) or is the amf limited to every corner of occupated space plus 10ft?The AMF is only in the 15ft from dragon's space. There is nothing that says your spell radius increases due to reach, or (beyond a touch spell) that it is equal to your reach. Think of the bite similar to shooting an arrow. The target of the arrow still has all his effects, even if the arrow was shot from within an AMF.
If you rule that the dragons bite exits the AMF, then so can his breath weapon.
Food for thought.
I can understand the mechanical perspective of the arrow example.
I ve read somewhere, that the spell radius is from every part part of the Dragon.
I don't remember what that means in game terms. but it is not limited to spread from one corner of a single square like normal spreads but spreads from every corner of every occupied square.
By the Idea, that this is because it surrounds the whole Dragon 10 feat in each direction it should move with its biting head. But it feels strange mechanical-wise.
By the Idea, that this is because it surrounds the whole Dragon 10 feat in each direction it should move with its biting head
This seems like it would make sense in a "real-world" example, but it would definitely be strange from a mechanics stand point. Implying that I could impact the radius of my emanation spells by stretching my hand into an adjacent square is...not good. Plus, this dragon is pretty big. Who's to say it couldn't extend its (presumably sizable) wings and stretch the AoE out even farther? I would stick to the mechanical "10 feet from every occupied space" and not include reach.
Um, excuse me, is this a gargantuan dracolich or is that thread necromancy I smell?