Saving throw entry: "(see text)" vs "; see text"


Rules Questions

Shadow Lodge

1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

In a spell's saving throw entry, does "(see text)" refer directly to the save in front of it, or does it perform identically to other cases where there is an immediate save when targeted, with the spell's descriptive text including more?

Compare two relatively similar spells:

hold person:
Hold Person
Saving Throw Will negates; see text
The subject becomes paralyzed and freezes in place. It is aware and breathes normally but cannot take any actions, even speech. Each round on its turn, the subject may attempt a new saving throw to end the effect. This is a full-round action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity. A winged creature who is paralyzed cannot flap its wings and falls. A swimmer can't swim and may drown.

oppressive boredom:
Oppressive Boredom
Saving Throw Will negates (see text)
You fill your target with boredom. The target loses all interest in its current task and must make a Will save against the spell’s effect in order to perform its next action. If the target fails, it takes no action that round. The boredom lasts until the duration expires or the target breaks the spell’s effect with a successful Will save.

For hold person, it's long been established that the target immediately gets a save when the spell is cast, then can spend a full-round action on their turn to save again. This works out to the target spending one round paralyzed per failed save. In this case, it is likely that the "see text" phrase in the saving throw entry refers to the additional saving throws allowed after the target is afflicted, while the "Will negates" allows a save upon being targeted.

For oppressive boredom, we see that the target must make a Will save at the beginning of his turn (at no cost) in order to be able to act. Is this the Will save that the Saving Throw entry is referring to? Is the "(see text)" phrase in this case used to identify that what exactly "Will negates" is referring to, or does the spell allow an initial saving throw to negate the effect entirely before the target takes his next action?

In order to have oppressive boredom require exactly one round inactive per failed save, without changing the descriptive text, would the Saving Throw entry need to say "None; see text" / "None (see text)"?

Sovereign Court

I'm afraid that if you search thoroughly, you'll probably find that there's no consistent rule to apply here that will be correct in all cases.


I don't believe (see text) or 'see text' has any particular meaning at all, other than that the general block of text will have information about the save.

In the case of Oppressive Boredom, it could be written clearer, but, notice that unlike Hold Person, it doesn't specify when the target makes the save for a given round. Generally it would probably be easier book keeping to have them attempt when their initiative comes around, but there is not reason to think that it isn't actually when the spell is cast and exactly one round later (on the casters turn) when the new tries come up.

In any event, it seems clear to me that they get to save, if they fail they can't act that turn and each subsequent turn they get another chance to make a save, allowing them to start acting as normal.


I can explain this one! The important part isn't the parenthesis, it's the semicolon. That indicates that there's a soft break in the information. Hold Person is Will negates then see text for afterwards. Two separate clauses. Oppressive boredom is Will negates but it's complicated so check the text to see what we mean. One clause.

Sovereign Court

I think Bob's got it, for these two spells. Still, I suspect there exists another spell in some book that violates this logic.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Huh, this actually makes me think that I've been using Terrible Remorse wrong all the time.

Terrible Remorse:
Source Ultimate Magic pg. 1 (Amazon)
School enchantment (compulsion) [emotion, mind-affecting]; Level arcanist 4, bard 3, cleric/oracle 4, inquisitor 3, skald 3, sorcerer/wizard 4, warpriest 4
Casting
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S
Effect
Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target 1 living creature
Duration 1 round/level
Saving Throw Will partial (see text); Spell Resistance yes
Description
You fill a target with such profound remorse that it begins to harm itself. Each round, the target must save or deal 1d8 points of damage + its Strength modifier to itself using an item held in its hand or with unarmed attacks. If the creature saves, it is staggered for 1 round and takes a -2 penalty to Armor Class, after which the spell ends.

We've always been doing this as the target attempts the save on it's turn, if it fails it will only hurt itself, unless it saves in which case it's staggered.

I now see that it should be done that on my initiative the creature saves to see if it harms itself, but is perfectly capable of acting on it's own turn.

Shadow Lodge

Bob Bob Bob wrote:
I can explain this one! The important part isn't the parenthesis, it's the semicolon. That indicates that there's a soft break in the information. Hold Person is Will negates then see text for afterwards. Two separate clauses. Oppressive boredom is Will negates but it's complicated so check the text to see what we mean. One clause.

That's the way I've been leaning as well; there's just been a bunch of discussion that leaned the other way (specifically with oppressive boredom, and some innate desire to keep it worse than hold person).

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Call it formatting inconsistency.


James Risner wrote:
Call it formatting inconsistency.

I will have to agree with this. The general purpose of parentheses in terms of written sentences is to section off parts of a sentence that either grammatically separate meanings in the event one is incorrect, or to conclude a section of the sentence does not have to be there, but it is for extra clarification (and this excerpt right here is an example of what many would call proper usage of parentheses).

In regards to Oppressive Boredom, the parenthetical see text would imply that only certain creatures are affected, certain conditions must be met, additional information about the saving throw(s), etc. Or that whatever is in the However, since it is as cut and dry as the likes of Hold Person, the parentheses (and probably the see text included in the parenthetical area) are, sentence-structurally speaking, pointless to include, and only suggests that the writer did not use the parentheses in the usual manner.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Rules Questions / Saving throw entry: "(see text)" vs "; see text" All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.
Recent threads in Rules Questions