But add DR 20, 30+ strength, 300 hp and multiple natural attacks and see if your barbarian still has an easy time taking out those castersI can fight plenty of casters, like all the humanoid ones, without needing any "Knowledge(Arcane)".
Knowledge(Arcane) doesn't really help, unless they've made constructs or similar things. Spellcraft would be more useful, but your average barbarian can kill casters quite happily without knowing exactly what they're casting.And
Don't forget a degree of reach and often the natural ability to fly (without all that casting nonsense beforehand).
You can't take advantage of the squishy nature of most casters here.
The T-rex is CR 9 despite having 18 HD. Because it is a big dumb lizard without too many special abilities or spell casting to speak of.
Spellcasting makes a big difference in power. The typical melee response is to deal so much damage at the start that spells are not used. That tactic is invalidated with dragons, who are powerful enough to survive an initial burst of damage. Thus, you have to actually deal with the spell casting.
Ergo, learning how to deal with the spellcasting helps make this more of a giant lizard fight.
I'm not sure of the point. Would studying "ancient mysteries, magic traditions, arcane symbols, constructs, magical beasts" help?
The point is there's no way to specialize and only learn what you're interested in dealing with. And things that seem like you'd be likely to know, but know nothing about - like the Warg, which is usually found with wolves, but the wolf expert knows nothing about.
Then we're even; I'm not sure of your point, either.
Is it a problem that every pharmacist is also a trauma surgeon (Heal skill)? Is it a problem that every pickpocket also knows coin magic (Sleight of Hand skill)? Is it a problem that every Inuit hunter also knows how to find water in the middle of the Sahara (Survival skill)? How about the fact that anyone who knows how to tell a zircon from a diamond can also do home appraisals (Appraise skill)? How about the fact that every college high jumper can also do contortions and walk tightropes (Acrobatic skill)? Or that every skilled counterfeiter can also read Greek (Linguistics skill)?
Why single out Knowledge skills for abuse as being too broad? Why can't I learn how to read/write Klingon without suddenly being able to read/write Japanese as well? Prāmānikapanē, ā jagyā'ē mūrkha chē.
No, it's "expected" that players can spend their skill points as they see fit; if my paladin decides to put a point into Appraise, then he suddenly learns how to value objects. If the paladin decides instead to learn Sleight of Hand, he suddenly learns how to do card tricks, palm coins, and pick pockets.
If for some reason you decide that you need to approve skill points before the player spends them, you're being nontraditionally overbearing.
But if you decide that, having allowed the player to spend skills points in a certain way, they're not going to get the benefit of them, you're simply being a jerk and a bad DM.
I think there's been a miscommunication here. This is NOT what I meant to suggest.
Let me first reiterate that now that I know about the 5-15 rule, I have no problems whatsoever with the way Knowledge works and this discussion, as far as I'm concerned, is about the fluff behind skill points and assumptions characters can make.
More specifically, My qualm was with this statement:
I feel exactly the opposite way. Especially when we're talking about a group of professional adventurers (like the Pathfinder Society), it should be extremely rare that they encounter monsters that they don't know everything about. That's a basic, common sense, survival tactic. If what you don't know can kill you, you make sure you learn everything you can.
...
Any character who made it to second level should have bought a copy of all of the bestiaries or their equivalent and should have memorized it. "A slim half-elf with ram's horns? That's an erodaemon, which is immune to acid, but has DR 10/good or silver." This is no less survival information than the "don't eat those berries" that literally every scout troop is taught.
I've got no problem with a character that reads about daemons because he's interested in them. I have a problem with the idea/assumption that people in this world would start pouring over books about creatures they don't even know exist on the off chance that they might encounter them in a story that has this far given no indication they will appear.
This idea that a character would, after fighting a few orcs and goblins, go out and buy demonolgoy textbooks because hey, we've probably only finish about 1/6 of this adventure and I'll probably fight demons sometime, seems ridiculous.
What about "people in this world who've maxed out every single knowledge skill, pouring over books about creatures?"
What about "people in this world who've maxed out every single knowledge skill, pouring over books about creatures?"
That is not what I'm concerned with. I thought I made myself clear: I take issue with this idea that Orfamay suggested that any 2nd level character should have learned everything there is to know about creature of his APL range because, unless he's studied them for some other reason he may have no reason to know they exist, let alone have reason to expect to encounter them.
If one does not even know that daemons exist, how COULD one invest time and money into reading about them, let alone have any desire to without any expectation of encountering it.
I see the Knowledge skills as one of two thingS:
1. You're actively studying the topic (having an interest in religion, etc.)
2. You just "happen" across a bit of esoteric information from somewhere.
I don't buy this "any adventurer would read and memorize all bestiaries" nonsense. It implies that every PC is a "dedicated adventurer" who's expects to keep going until they've encountered every esoteric monster in the book.
I mean, do you read about how to treat poisonous snake bites, even though you have no expectation of every visiting a region that might have venomous snakes, let alone be near one?
I've got no problem with a character that reads about daemons because he's interested in them. I have a problem with the idea/assumption that people in this world would start pouring over books about creatures they don't even know exist on the off chance that they might encounter them in a story that has this far given no indication they will appear.
And I have issues with the idea that there are people -- professional adventurers, no less -- who don't even know that monsters exist.
That's like a professional locksmith who doesn't know about Abloy locks. Even if he's never seen one and never expects to encounter one, he'll still listen when someone talks about them.
I could be wrong but seeing as this thread is about adventurers making knowledge checks, I believe that Orfamay was referring to adventurers with knowledge skills.
I mean, do you read about how to treat poisonous snake bites, even though you have no expectation of every visiting a region that might have venomous snakes, let alone be near one?
Er, yes. It's a standard part of any first aid course.
If one does not even know that daemons exist, how COULD one invest time and money into reading about them, let alone have any desire to without any expectation of encountering it.
Well, in the specific case of daemons, you don't learn about them, you learn about "planar creatures generally," and any reasonable source will probably mention them in passing. As to why you'd be interested in planar creatures generally,.... it doesn't take a theology degree to know that angels and devils exist, and some people will take an interest in angelology that will naturally extend to other planar creatures.
Put more tersely, you'll learn about daemons when you learn about angels, because they're in the same sources.
I mean, do you read about how to treat poisonous snake bites, even though you have no expectation of every visiting a region that might have venomous snakes, let alone be near one?
I don't level up by treating snake bites.
I'm far more bothered by the problem that you can't learn anything about dragons without picking up all the other Arcane knowledge.
You can't give your dragonslayer appropriate knowledge about his targets without him picking up "ancient mysteries, magic traditions, arcane symbols, constructs, magical beasts" along the way. Or my Ranger who knew nothing about the Warg (magical beast) we faced other than that it wasn't a wolf, despite looking so much like one.
It's a minor irritation, but it nags at me.
Unless you are only fighting very young dragons or linnorum, then you are facing full on spellcasters. That is one of their main threats- they are both physically powerful and extremely magical.
If you aren't prepared to face a caster, how can you face one that can rip your face off?
Even the random symbols and constructs can be chalked up to 'bored dragons' (which again, are bored casters with a lot of time on their hands and few natural predators), and as such something you need to prepare for.
I can fight plenty of casters, like all the humanoid ones, without needing any "Knowledge(Arcane)".
Knowledge(Arcane) doesn't really help, unless they've made constructs or similar things. Spellcraft would be more useful, but your average barbarian can kill casters quite happily without knowing exactly what they're casting.
Except being able to tell what buffs a caster has is one of the most important checks you will make in that fight, right up there with critical confirms and saving throws.
Example: "Huh, that guy has more protective magics than I've ever seen in my entire life. I wonder what would happen if I just run and hide for a few minutes and let them all expire? :)"
I agree. It's just one that comes up often enough to irritate me.
Bugs me, too. I'd like to make Knowledge checks more intuitive in my game (let the Dungeoneering experts ID fungi and drow, let the Nature experts recognize owlbears, Local experts pick out gremlins, etc.), but I'm worried that it would end up f&&!ing over players. They might prefer a reliable source of information over a realistic one. "Wait, I have Knowledge (nature), why can't I identify jinkins?!"
Are you suggesting that every "adventurer" should have at least enough points in every Knowledge skill to recognize every monster appropriate for his level?
And I have issues with the idea that there are people -- professional adventurers, no less -- who don't even know that monsters exist.That's like a professional locksmith who doesn't know about Abloy locks. Even if he's never seen one and never expects to encounter one, he'll still listen when someone talks about them.
No, just the ones who plan not to die in the next adventure. If, for some reason, your character deliberately chooses not to acquire information that could literally be critical to her survival over the next few hours,.... well, that's a choice.
But by the same token, any character who chooses to acquire the necessary knowledge that will make all-day suckers a worthwhile investment is making what any rational person would consider a rational choice.
You are aware that the vast majority of classes don't have the skill points for that, even if they neglected all the other skills, which could be equally if not more important to their survival.Are you suggesting that every "adventurer" should have at least enough points in every Knowledge skill to recognize every monster appropriate for his level?No, just the ones who plan not to die in the next adventure. If, for some reason, your character deliberately chooses not to acquire information that could literally be critical to her survival over the next few hours,.... well, that's a choice.
But by the same token, any character who chooses to acquire the necessary knowledge that will make all-day suckers a worthwhile investment is making what any rational person would consider a rational choice.
I am. And, as I said, that's a choice.
But let's bring it back to what Lemon said:
Ordinary folk starting out may have no idea that daemons (or aliens, for that matter) literally exist, and therefore would have no reason to research them, let alone that there's a specific one called an erodaemon that has this and that power.
I submit that the fact that not knowing about monsters can kill adventurers is ample motivation for any adventurer to learn about them.
I've never encountered a rattlesnake in the wild, but I have an idea of how to identify one and I know their bite is likely to be poisonous. I don't believe in dragons, but I know what type of breath weapon a red dragon has. If dragons were real, I'd take way more interest in them.
Given a reliable sources of information, people would write books about all kinds of monsters and call them Bestiaries and people would read them for a variety of reasons - for the same kind of geeky reasons we in our world read them, or as the nearest available equivalent to a nature documentary, or as a practical guide to surviving in a world where werewolves are real.
There's been a lot of "pouring over books" in this thread. I wonder what the adventurers are pouring over the books. Could it be some potions to help them prepare for a fight with the monsters they've identified by poring over the books? I'm sorry for the petty criticism! Apparently I put ranks in Knowledge(Grammar) and maybe Profession(Jerk) though.
Back onto monster lore, if you use the 5/10/15 rule a lot of details about common monsters might basically become "common knowledge". For instance, anybody without an Int penalty would probably be able to identify a goblin, which is the specific example given for a common monster. I guess something like a rattlesnake or brown bear would probably fall into the common category as well. I'd think skeletons and zombies might too. If so practically everybody would know that you should smash skeletons and chop zombies. If not then nobody without ranks in Knowledge (Religion) would be able to come up with these facts. Since Knowledge checks about monsters are often made in combat you shouldn't have to worry about the PCs passing every check for low CR common monsters just by taking a 10.
How common lore about werewolves and vampires is might depend on the state of media in your fantasy world. In some worlds the gnomes might have invented a magical printing press which makes learning more available to the common people. In others they might have gone on to create panels which combine Silent Image and Ghost Sound to bring even Commoners a variety of entertaining and informative shows including Monster Kingdom. Now I'm thinking about how famous adventurers in such worlds might be able to bring floating camera constructs on adventures to record their exploits (and possibly sell the resulting movies as a way to increase WBL). Maybe low level parties could seek out contracts with adventure promoters who help them out with starting equipment in exchange for a cut of their profits and proceeds from their movies. It could end up as the sort of antagonistic relationship a lot of bands seem to have with the record company. Ok, I'm obviously way off topic now...
I mean, do you read about how to treat poisonous snake bites, even though you have no expectation of every visiting a region that might have venomous snakes, let alone be near one?I don't level up by treating snake bites.
Nope you level up by surviving a snake bite.
Moose bit my sister once.