Slowly (Finally!) getting my friends into the Skull & Shackles decks.
Pirate Hunting is a barrier with the Task trait, and has you summon and encounter a random ship. If the summoned ship is defeated, the barrier is also defeated.
One of the powers on the Rum Bottle states, "Banish this card to defeat a barrier that has the Task trait."
First question: Can you play the Rum Bottle to defeat Pirate Hunting? One of my friends did this the other day and something about this feels really wrong to me. Surely you are encountering the ship, which does not have the Task trait? (Don't attack my ship, you filthy pirates! Here, take this rum instead, and be off!)
Likewise, Siwar from the Bard class deck has a power that states, "When you attempt to defeat a barrier that has the Skirmish or Task trait, you may use your Diplomacy skill in place of any skill listed for the check."
So the second question is: Can she use her Diplomacy skill when encountering the ship? Pirate Hunting does not have a skill listed; instead it says "See Below", so I would think no. However, it feels like the intent of the barrier is to replace itself with a ship, and defeating the summoned ship defeats the barrier, so I could understand why this might be possible. Any thoughts?
I would say yes, you can use Rum Bottle to see off Pirate Hunting. It's got the Task trait for a reason. But I would say no, Siwar can't use her Diplomacy against a ship summoned by Pirate Hunting, unless that's a skill listed by the ship. She's no longer making a check against the barrier.
I would say yes, you can use Rum Bottle to see off Pirate Hunting. It's got the Task trait for a reason.
Okay, then the question is: Do you stash a plunder card for defeating the ship? You are summoning and encountering the ship regardless, right? If you use Rum Bottle to defeat the barrier, does that mean you are defeating the ship?
You could not do either of those things. You are summoning the ship before you ever get to the part of the barrier encounter where you would play cards. Shear could not use Diplomacy because the check is against the ship, not the barrier.
Just to play devil's advocate, one could then say that defeating the ship is in effect defeating the barrier, and Siwar can use her power because she is attempting to defeat a barrier. Or am I right in thinking that she cannot because she is no longer attempting to defeat a barrier, and the ship is the only thing being encountered (in a "cards don't have memories" kind of way, i.e. it doesn't know what summoned it)?
You can't use the Rum Bottle or Siwar's power because you're not making a check to defeat a barrier, you're making a check to defeat a ship. The fact that defeating the ship defeats the barrier doesn't change what kind of check you are making.
I see this as analogous to the Gozreh ruling. The Blessing of Gozreh grants two dice to a check to close a location. But if the closing requirements specify you have to defeat a monster or a ship to close the location, Gozreh doesn't give you two dice for those checks. (This is in the FAQ.) The fact that defeating the monster or ship closes the location doesn't make the check to defeat a closing check.
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I would say yes, you can use Rum Bottle to see off Pirate Hunting. It's got the Task trait for a reason.Okay, then the question is: Do you stash a plunder card for defeating the ship? You are summoning and encountering the ship regardless, right? If you use Rum Bottle to defeat the barrier, does that mean you are defeating the ship?
You could not do either of those things. You are summoning the ship before you ever get to the part of the barrier encounter where you would play cards. Shear could not use Diplomacy because the check is against the ship, not the barrier.Just to play devil's advocate, one could then say that defeating the ship is in effect defeating the barrier, and Siwar can use her power because she is attempting to defeat a barrier. Or am I right in thinking that she cannot because she is no longer attempting to defeat a barrier, and the ship is the only thing being encountered (in a "cards don't have memories" kind of way, i.e. it doesn't know what summoned it)?
You do still stash plunder, all that matters for that is defeating a ship, and that's exactly what you're doing.
Defeating the ship is not defeating the barrier, the ship is the ship and the barrier is the barrier. Two separate encounters, one just happens to determine what happens in the other. This was confirmed by Mike in another thread. Two completely separate encounters, you can't play a card on one that only applies to the other.
Excellent, thanks for your help guys, and for confirming what I had thought! I agree: separate encounters, therefore separate checks. And a ship is not a barrier, so Siwar cannot use her power.
Also apologies for the duplicate issue; I didn't realize there was already a thread about the Rum Bottle!
Excellent, thanks for your help guys, and for confirming what I had thought! I agree: separate encounters, therefore separate checks. And a ship is not a barrier, so Siwar cannot use her power.
Also apologies for the duplicate issue; I didn't realize there was already a thread about the Rum Bottle!
Wait, where's the thread about Rum Bottle? I agree that if you summon the ship that now you need cards that deal with the ship. So cards for barriers, like Blessing of Abadar, aren't relevant (Abadar gives just one die). But why can't you play Rum Bottle to defeat a barrier with the Task trait? That's what Pirate Hunting is. You don't summon the ship, you don't stash plunder. Just how it seems to me.
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There wasn't a thread specifically about Rum Bottle, it was about playing cards in this same situation
Results of Card A affect Card B
Can you play cards against Card A that only affect Card B
I believe it was about Blessing of Gozreh. It adds two dice to close a location. The question was, if a location required you to defeat a monster to close, would Gozreh give two dice against that monster. The answer was no. Same situation here.
Jones, the reason you can't play the Rum Bottle here is because of the order of steps. By the time you get to where you can play the Rum Bottle, you're already past the step where you summoned the ship. Cards aren't just played whenever, there is an order of events listed in the rulebook, and playing cards comes after summoning the Pirate Hunting ship.
Once you summon that ship, you're in the ship encounter, so for the time being, you can't play anything for the barrier. Once you resolve the ship encounter, the barrier is automatically defeated or undefeated, and there is nothing the Rum Bottle can do about that. If you had a card that said something along the lines of "If you would fail to defeat a barrier with the Task trait, it is defeated instead" then you could play that. It specifically allows you to modify the outcome, and gets played after it is undefeated. However, the Bottle is played specifically during the Play Cards that Modify the Check step, which is non-existent against PH because there is no check to modify.
Lem encounters Pirate Hunting. The rule book says to go through the following steps in order.
Apply Any Effects That Happen When You Encounter a Card ... You may also use powers or cards that state they can be used when you encounter a card.
Rum Bottle says "Banish this card to defeat a barrier that has the Task trait." So Lem does that.
I don't know why Pirate Hunting would have traits itself if you couldn't directly interact with it.
Edit: I don't think you play Rum Bottle (for its second ability) during the step to play cards to modify a check because you aren't modifying a check. No dice are rolled. Basically you are giving up your rum for someone else to deal with the task.
Not all barriers with the Task trait have the adding allies for a d4 bit. See Becalmed and Lookout Duty.
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Rum Bottle never says it can be played when you encounter a card. What that step is talking about is cards that specify "When you encounter X, play this card to do Y". Rum Bottle gets played later, not when you encounter the card. Playing cards that auto defeat have always been played during the Modify step, and still require you to do When You Encounter and Before you Encounter/Act. There are powers that specifying get played when you encounter something. If it doesn't specify that, it isn't part of that step.
Every card has traits, not all traits matter. There are even traits that have 0 effect on any card at all. Just because a trait is on the card doesn't mean it's going to matter.
Thanks for patiently responding, I find this whole discussion informative. I agree that traits can appear for no necessary reason (or so it seems currently, viz. Craft ROTR). It has made me look at cards and reread the rule book carefully, which can't be a bad thing.
Okay, so maybe you don't play Rum Bottle in Apply Any Effects when you encounter. The next two aren't relevant so we get to Attempt the check. The card's check section says "see below" not "none" so we don't immediately do what it says. We go to try to defeat it. And then we play Rum Bottle. Before summoning a ship, etc. What's wrong with that?
. The card's check section says "see below" not "none" ...
See the S&S FAQ.
Resolution: On the henchman Enemy Ship and the barrier Pirate Hunting, change the check to defeat from "See Below" to "None".
The Rum Bottle thread I was talking about is this one.
That thread is worth looking at because someone points out a section of the rulebook which says: "If you're told to summon and encounter a card, this immediately starts a new encounter. If you're already in an encounter, complete the encounter with the summoned card before continuing the original encounter."
When you encounter PH, the first thing you do is summon and encounter a random ship. Therefore, as per the rulebook, you deal with the ship before you can deal with the barrier, which makes sense because whether or not you defeat the ship informs what happens with the barrier.
Hunh, well it seems like you can't use Rum Bottle to get rid of Pirate Hunting but you can use it against Becalmed ...
I haven't yet seen Becalmed but I will keep an eye out for it …
Hunh, well it seems like you can't use Rum Bottle to get rid of Pirate Hunting but you can use it against Becalmed ...
Yes, because Becalmed has a check to defeat (wisdom/perception 8 IIRC?)
I still don't know how getting buzzed can help you avoid being stuck with your ship in a dead calm but for some reason it does.
Rum can be a powerful motivator. Maybe they got out and pushed?
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I still don't know how getting buzzed can help you avoid being stuck with your ship in a dead calm but for some reason it does.
I've had enough rum in my life to assure you that becalming is less of a problem with a few mai tais in you.
I still don't know how getting buzzed can help you avoid being stuck with your ship in a dead calm but for some reason it does.I've had enough rum in my life to assure you that becalming is less of a problem with a few mai tais in you.
Hieeeyyy Tanis-mate. May I humbly answer that I've had enough calm in my life to assure you that a few mai tais in you is less of a problem than finding another round of drinks.