Genuine
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So, I realized that the ranged tactics Juggler archetype is legal for PFS, and I started playing around.
I ended up wanting to play a variation of the Rime-spell Dex magus, but as a TW-fighter. I know there may be some table variation on whether or not I can spell combat and Two-weapon fight (he has a hand free, the question is whether they're both compatible full-attack actions; lets ignore that for the moment, as I have agreement with my normal PFS GM, and I don't intend to take this guy elsewhere).
So, here's what I have so far:
Dex(18)-> Int(14)-> Con(12)-> Wis(12)-> Str(8)-> Cha(7)
Human Bard(Juggler)/Magus(Kensei)
Traits: Magical Lineage (Chill Touch), Reactionary
1: Juggler (Weapon Finesse, Rime Spell)
2: Juggler
3: Magus WF(Wakizashi), (Slashing Grace)
4: Magus
5: Magus (2 Weapon Fighting)(Flamboyant Arcana)
6: Magus
7: Magus (Improved Initiative)(Toughness)
8: Magus (Arcane Deed (Precision)
9: Magus (Imp 2 Weapon Fighting)
10: Magus
11: Magus (Improved Familiar?) (Arcana: Familiar))
I'm considering replacing Improved Init or Toughness with Combat Reflexes. Also, isn't there a feet that allows you to make off-hand attacks during an AoO?
claudekennilol
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So basically you're giving up spell combat in order to juggle?
You DO NOT have a hand free as that hand has to remain free for your entire turn. Your PFS GM may be happy in letting you break the rules, but it's still wrong, and a crappy attitude for signing on to a network campaign.
this.
| Kazaan |
Yeah, this won't work. A FAQ already clarified that when it says you need one free hand to cast your spell and make attacks with the weapon "in your other hand", that literally means you have one (and only one) hand for casting and the opposite hand (and only that hand) for attacking. Juggling lets you occupy both your hands and have a "pool" of items with which to use (one of which, presumably, is "free hand"). That defies the conditions under which Spell Combat operates. However, there is a work-around. There's a single double weapon that is a one-handed weapon at its base; the Taiaha. You still must wield it in both hands in order to fight double with it (use it for TWF), but whereas most double weapons are 2-h weapons and can be used as 2-h weapons if you can't (or choose not to) fight using TWF rules, the Taiaha is listed as a 1-h weapon which qualifies for Spell Combat if you attack with just one end. So, what you can do, is fight with the Taiaha as a 1-h weapon during Spell Combat, and if you don't need to cast a spell, you use 2 hands to wield it as a double weapon for TWF purposes.
Alternatively, you could go for the Staff Master archetype. You get free Quarterstaff Master which lets you treat a Quarterstaff as if it were a 1-h weapon and use it in the same manner in which you use the Taiaha described above; 1-h it during Spell Combat and wield it double for TWF purposes if you don't need Spell Combat that round.
PS: Another option I hadn't thought of is the Butterfly Sword. It's wielded as a single light weapon, but can be separated into two blades as a free action.
| Azoriel |
Slashing Grace is only applicable to one-handed slashing weapons (not light ones), though I'm suspecting your DM is willing to hand-wave that requirement. As an alternative, there is also the agile enchantment (which is arguably superior due to the fact that it costs gold rather than feats).
It's implicit that you can't combine two-weapon fighting with spell combat (and I believe the developers have outright stated as much as well), but that doesn't mean they can't share function on the same character - if you were to use Spell Combat to cast chill touch or frostbite on the first round, and then stick to two-weapon fighting every subsequent round, that shouldn't be a problem.
As for your question at the end, there were two different feats in 3.5 that allowed for double AoOs if you were dual wielding (one from the Miniatures Handbook, the other from Dragon Magazine), though these feats weren't Open Gaming Content and (pointedly) haven't been reprinted for Pathfinder. The closest thing to this you'll find now is the 13th level ability of the "Two-Weapon Warrior" fighter archetype. (I would consider this to be a unique perk of the archetype at this point, and not something which should be made into a feat for general use.)
Genuine
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I messed up on slashing grace.
Ok, as to juggler not working with spell combat, let's reprint the text, so we're all on the same page (Emphasis added):
At 1st level, a magus learns to cast spells and wield his weapons at the same time. This functions much like two-weapon fighting, but the off-hand weapon is a spell that is being cast. To use this ability, the magus must have one hand free (even if the spell being cast does not have somatic components), while wielding a light or one-handed melee weapon in the other hand. As a full-round actionp, he can make all of his attacks with his melee weapon at a –2 penalty and can also cast any spell from the magus spell list with a casting time of 1 standard action (any attack roll made as part of this spell also takes this penalty). If he casts this spell defensively, he can decide to take an additional penalty on his attack rolls, up to his Intelligence bonus, and add the same amount as a circumstance bonus on his concentration check. If the check fails, the spell is wasted, but the attacks still take the penalty. A magus can choose to cast the spell first or make the weapon attacks first, but if he has more than one attack, he cannot cast the spell between weapon attacks.
At 2nd level, a juggler can hold and wield (in other words, “juggle”) up to three items or weapons in his hands. The juggler must be able to hold and wield an object in one hand in order to juggle it.
This ability doesn't grant the juggler additional attacks, though it does allow him to use different weapons as part of a full attack. As long as he is juggling fewer than three objects, the juggler is considered to have a free hand (for the purposes of drawing a weapon, using somatic components, using Deflect Arrows, and so on). At 6th level and every 4 levels thereafter, the maximum number of objects the juggler can juggle increases by one, to a maximum of seven objects at 18th level.
If the juggler is affected by any action or condition that would require a concentration check while he is juggling, he must attempt a Sleight of Hand check to continue juggling and avoid losing concentration. The check's DC is the same as a concentration check, treating the spell level as twice the number of objects being juggled.
If the juggler fails his Sleight of Hand check, he drops all juggled objects but one, determined randomly.
This ability replaces versatile performance.
So, spell combat requires a free hand. [When holding fewer than 3 items/weapons] the Juggler is considered to have a free hand.
How exactly does this not work? The juggler is essentially adding another hand - he can hold 3 items, or hold 2 items and have one hand count as free.
(I constantly forgot the bit about Slashing Grace not working with light weapons, I'll need to fiddle on that bit, thank you.)
| Kazaan |
It doesn't work because Spell Combat is extra-picky. It requires you to, explicitly and specifically, have one hand free for the entire duration of the action and make attacks with a light or one-handed weapon "in your other hand". You may have a virtual free hand for the purpose of simple things like drawing a weapon or using somatic components, but Spell Combat is far more limiting than just requiring a free hand; it must be a single free hand along with a weapon wielded in the other hand. Your weapon, while juggling, isn't wielded "in your other hand" so it doesn't count.
Fruian Thistlefoot
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Is it possible to Off Hand a Returning dagger....Free action drop it to cast the spell and next turn recall the weapon to hand for the full TWF?
But as of now I agree it will not work as the OP is hoping.
I just started a level 2 magus in PFS. I've played the Str and Dex builds with a scimitar but this time I'm going with a Whip Kensai. It has been fun so far. Truestrike is a abusive spell.
| Azoriel |
Is it possible to Off Hand a Returning dagger....Free action drop it to cast the spell and next turn recall the weapon to hand for the full TWF?
To my knowledge, a returning weapon doesn't return to your hand unless you throw it in an attack. The returning enchantment doesn't say you need to throw it for it to return, only that it flies through the air and comes back to you, so you could arguably get away with this. A glove of storing would be another option (though that would take up your glove slot).
To be entirely honest, if this was my campaign, I'd be inclined to let Juggling work with Spell Combat, simply because it indeed says his hand counts as being available for spell casting. (Note that there's no caveats about how or when he has a free hand available, only that it does so long as he is in a position to juggle and there's less than three objects.) Combining Two Weapon Fighting with Spell Combat would be the more questionable part of this equation in my eyes, since Spell Combat is supposed to be equivalent to Two Weapon Fighting - using the two together would be like applying the penalties for TWF twice to get twice the number of extra attacks.
I suspect the (potentially bigger) problem 177cheese brought up was missed, so I will highlight it here:
Precise Strike (Ex) : At 3rd level, while she has at least 1 panache point, a swashbuckler gains the ability to strike precisely with a light or one-handed piercing melee weapon (though not natural weapon attacks), adding her swashbuckler level to the damage dealt. To use this deed, a swashbuckler cannot attack with a weapon in her other hand or use a shield other than a buckler. She can even use this ability with thrown light or one-handed piercing melee weapons, so long as the target is within 30 feet of her. Any creature that is immune to sneak attacks is immune to the additional damage granted by precise strike, and any item or ability that protects a creature from critical hits also protects a creature from the additional damage of a precise strike. This additional damage is precision damage, and isn't multiplied on a critical hit. As a swift action, a swashbuckler can spend 1 panache point to double her precise strike's damage bonus on the next attack. This benefit must be used before the end of her turn, or it is lost. This deed's cost cannot be reduced by any ability or effect that reduces the amount of panache points a deed costs (such as the Signature Deed feat).
Regardless of available hands, this pretty much trumps any two weapon fighting with precise strike. TWF might still be worthwhile combined with the Frostbite spell, but that's a much less reliable source of extra damage (and makes the build less desirable overall).
Genuine
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I know that the iffy part of this is the action of TWF-ing combined with the action of Spell Combat. The whole *this is a full attack but not the same as that full attack* concept tends to be a little inconsistent. The interactions of haste, secondary natural attacks, flurry (in all its many flavors), spell combat, TWF, and other abilities that require full attacks are complicated and inconsistent. Think of this as theoretical building, in that sense.
I remain confident that juggling allows a character to maintain a free hand for the purpose of spell combat. Unless there is an on-point post by a dev regarding limitations of the Combat Juggling then I don't want to hear about it anymore.
Hmm. I do have to think about the precise deed thing. While a part of me is tempted to argue that you're not attacking with your other hand when you have a free hand, it really isn't the same thing. Precise Strike doesn't require a free hand the way spell combat or deflect arrow does, it requires that you not make any weapon attacks with your 'other hand.' And not being able to use Precise strike anymore really, really hurts this build.
How would a third arm interact? I like the bard archetype better than an Alchemist, but getting a third arm would mean that I have a literal 'other hand' that isn't making any attacks. It still seems ambiguous, depending on whether that 'other' is inclusive or exclusive. Are you forbidden from attacking when you attack with a weapon in any other hand, or that other hand.
| Gisher |
So basically you're giving up spell combat in order to juggle?
You DO NOT have a hand free as that hand has to remain free for your entire turn. Your PFS GM may be happy in letting you break the rules, but it's still wrong, and a crappy attitude for signing on to a network campaign.
If the magus can't hold anything in his off hand during Spell Combat, then how can he cast spells with material components? He needs a hand to manipulate them, but his other hand is, ordinarily, occupied with a weapon. Either the magus can, at least briefly, hold some objects in his off hand, or it is impossible to use Spell Combat to cast invisibility while using a scimitar.
It is also possible that the juggler is only using one hand to juggle in this scenario. The Combat Juggling ability only grants a free hand when juggling less than three items, and juggling two items in one hand is one of the first techniques that a real-world juggler learns. If he juggles the two weapons in his primary hand, then his off hand would be completely free during the full-round action. (Aside from any of the aforementioned material components.)
And as a technical point, Spell Combat is a full-round action so it doesn't take up your entire turn. You still have a swift action during which both hands could be occupied.
| avr |
Regarding TWF w/slashing grace -the sawtooth sabre is made for this. It's a one-handed slashing weapon which is treated as light for TWF penalties only.
Regarding 3 hands and Precise Strike - "cannot attack with a weapon in her other hand" sounds to me like attacking with any weapon in another hand is out for the purposes of the deed. You could possibly (IMO) attack using the deed, then complete your attacks for the round without using the deed, hence not gaining the bonus damage on the off-hand attacks.
| Blakmane |
I remain confident that juggling allows a character to maintain a free hand for the purpose of spell combat. Unless there is an on-point post by a dev regarding limitations of the Combat Juggling then I don't want to hear about it anymore.
FAQ:
Magus, Spell Combat: When using spell combat, do I specifically have to use the weapon in my other hand, or can I use a mixture of weapons (such as armor spikes and bites) so long as my casting hand remains free?
You specifically have to use the light or one-handed melee weapon in your other hand.
This is a direct, on-topic dev quote. You MUST use the light or one-handed melee weapon in your other hand. Not even a weapon, [the] (singular) weapon. TWF simply does not work, by design, with a magus.
On top of that, the Magus rules text:
At 1st level, a magus learns to cast spells and wield his weapons at the same time. This functions much like two-weapon fighting, but the off-hand weapon is a spell that is being cast.
Your off hand is occupied with the spell. Even if it later becomes free, you cannot use it to TWF because it is already being used in TWF. Suddenly having more 'hands' worth of actions doesn't give you the ability to have another off-hand. The Armor spikes/two-handed weapon sets a precedent for this:
Armor Spikes: Can I use two-weapon fighting to make an "off-hand" attack with my armor spikes in the same round I use a two-handed weapon?
No.
Likewise, you couldn't use an armored gauntlet to do so, as you are using both of your hands to wield your two-handed weapon, therefore your off-hand is unavailable to make any attacks.
| Azoriel |
How would a third arm interact? I like the bard archetype better than an Alchemist, but getting a third arm would mean that I have a literal 'other hand' that isn't making any attacks. It still seems ambiguous, depending on whether that 'other' is inclusive or exclusive. Are you forbidden from attacking when you attack with a weapon in any other hand, or that other hand.
Past treatment of the analogous term "off-hand" suggests that usage of that "off-hand" doesn't necessarily refer to a literal hand (case in point being the reference to armor spikes being an "off-hand attack", even though they aren't necessarily used in any hands at all). As such, this would indicate the use of "other hand" here wouldn't be a litteral hand either, but rather refer to any active usage of a weapon outside of the one in your primary hand.
If you wanted to make this a game of legalese, let's say you went along with this prospective three-armed alchemist/magus build and had a pair of swords in two of your three hands (the third being empty): presuming you were actively wielding both swords, you'd still be using a weapon in your "other hand" even if you had yet another "other hand" that was empty.
(I'd agree you can simply hold a weapon in your off-hand - not actively getting attacks out of it - while benefitting from precise strike. However, I'd also agree that's largely besides the point.)
Long and short, precise strike will not work with two weapon fighting - this was limitation which was intentionally put in place by the authors. Rather than continuing to troubleshoot some kind of workaround for this particular combination of abilities, you'd be better off finding some other method to get extra millage out of precise strike that isn't already explicitly barred from working. (Off of the top of my head, the traditional spellstrike + spell combat, spellstrike + a quickened spell, or even flurry of blows would all be superior choices for this reason.)