So just about every time somebody takes the Leadership feat as a Wizard/Summoner i hear this question "Can i make my familiar/eidolon my cohort?" and while i know that RAW you are not able to designate them as such, i am curious, what are the implications and balance issues involved with allowing somebody to do so?
Implications? Advancement issues. Familiars, eidolons, and cohorts all have different rules pertaining to advancement. Which takes priority? Do you end up with pseudodragon familiars that are gaining hit dice and class levels? Eidolons too? Who wouldn't want an eidolon with some barbarian levels to go with its multiarmed pounce routine?
Implications? Advancement issues. Familiars, eidolons, and cohorts all have different rules pertaining to advancement. Which takes priority? Do you end up with pseudodragon familiars that are gaining hit dice and class levels? Eidolons too? Who wouldn't want an eidolon with some barbarian levels to go with its multiarmed pounce routine?
For the purposes of this lets say that for familiars, it follows the same rules of Master's or Own, whichever better for the skill points, saves, and BAB, but from the way i read it, the levels could not add HP due to how the HP states it is ALWAYS half, no matter the creatures own HD
As for the eidolon, from what i am reading it appears to lack the same "sharing" mechanics the familiar holds, it may well just get its own stuff
One reason why i ask is because of the fact that i personally am wanting to do this, i am making a summoner with a biped eidolon that will essentially be a somewhat normal weapon using fighter, it will not be using the shenanigans i have seen others using with natural attacks and such and i forsee it falling behind because of this, i have asked the DM if i could make it a cohort at level 7 with leadership and start having it take class levels, maybe in something like Inquisitor or Magus
Edit: Maybe a good way to do it would be something like the way having multiple enhancement bonuses works, it takes the best of what is has in that category, for instance instead of having eidolon level + magus level for his will save he would have either eidolon level OR magus level, whichever is higher
Basically, so long as you have some sort of rule to build the creature then you can turn it into a cohort.
The general CR of a cohort is PC level - 2 - 1, or CR 4 at level 7.
Master level 7.
Max cohort level 5.
NPC gold is -1 to level, so CR 4.
So basically, use Unfettered Eidolon CR 4, Familiars would need to be Awoken first and take 5 class levels, Awoken Animals would need to gain class levels to reach CR 4 and gain NPC gold equal to their CR as level.
You have to release your familiar before it can be awoken. It likely retains all of its memories of being your familiar, so when it is awoken it may or may not take kindly to how you treated it. It also does not retain the ability to use the Familiar Spell Metamagic. It is, for all extents and purposes, just an animal that is awoken. You, of course, need to pay to gain a new familiar since you released it.
Keep in mind: that the Monstrous Cohorts presented here are from Paizo. These are supposedly balanced by how much power the cohort gives the PC who gains it with leadership. This means that actually deciding what levels a cohort should be can be shaky at best, and should be decided by the GM instead of the player. Use CR 4 as a baseline, and then judge how useful the cohort may or may not be in comparison to a NPC who fulfills the same role as closely as possible. If the cohort has any special abilities, they need to be factored in as well.
An example is the Hound Archon: it has Greater Teleport and DR 10/evil. This means it is not only highly resistant to damage, possibly moreso than the PCs, but it can escape from nearly any battle the moment it starts to lose. Basically, it is extremely powerful, and Aid can act as a buff to make the party, in addition to itself, even more unkillable.
Just imagine a party of 4 PCs, all taking hound archons. Killing them would be next to impossible, worse so considering the archons would likely all become paladins.
Possible baselines:
Awoken Familiar: Possibly a level 5 Cleric, rogue or wizard.
Improved Familiar: Possibly a level 3 Cleric, rogue or wizard.
Awoken Animal Companion: Possibly a level 5 - 0 Cleric, rogue or wizard.
Unfettered Eidolon: As with many outsiders, they start at CR 4, and then gain class levels beyond that.
|
I don't think you necessarily need to balance an eidolon/cohort or familiar/cohort the same way you would balance a monstrous cohort. You're using this to enhance a class feature (which in the case of the eidolon is possibly stronger than an NPC of your level -2) and in doing so are giving up on the extra action economy a cohort often provides.
Edit: Maybe a good way to do it would be something like the way having multiple enhancement bonuses works, it takes the best of what is has in that category, for instance instead of having eidolon level + magus level for his will save he would have either eidolon level OR magus level, whichever is higher
That sounds fair. That basically gives you a gestalt eidolon/cohort, and I think it's well accepted that a gestalt character is not as powerful as two single classed characters (an eidolon and a cohort).
However you should be open to having your GM continue to review the eidolon's power - the eidolon shouldn't be overshadowing other players' characters. While a gestalt is generally less powerful than its components, the boost might be enough to make it as a single entity dominate the group. And that could be un-fun. It sounds that you're more interested in keeping your eidolon relevant with a less optimal eidolon build than making it super-powerful, so GM monitoring shouldn't be a problem.
A slightly less powerful option is to grant the miscellaneous class features of whatever you're classing the eidolon/familiar with, but not the basic HD/BAB/saves/skills.
Eidolons have extra hit dice to make up for their lack of class abilities. They are better at hitting things, and if they are built correctly they can be great tanks or even healers (Fast healing + sacrifice = infinite healing by 11 HD or 11 CR depending on how the GM wants to run it.
Everyone points how how Unfettered Eidolons have more HD than PCs, and that is true, but they really don't get anything beyond that aside from evolutions. They do not scale well, and worse, there are two spells that essentially kill them in terms of non-level 17 or 18 gameplay.
An Eidolon is more powerful than an NPC using an NPC class, which is why the majority of Leadership based NPCs use Heroic classes.
CR 4 unfettered Eidolon VS lvl 5 Synthesist should be a fairly even fight, perhaps even stacked on the Synth's side. No clue, however, I'd have to theory craft them, look at their strengths and weaknesses. I'm a bit busy at the moment, so I an't do it now.
So i talked with the DM, and he said that he is fine with designating the Eidolon as the cohort, and he says the way it works is it will straight up add to it. So what do you think this will mean?
|
|
I think your eidolon will dominate everything at the table.
A 7th level eidolon has the BAB and HD of a 6th level fighter, with two good saves and +8 armour without any movement penalties. Physical ability scores could be 20/15/13 or 18/17/13. This is before evolutions, which are generally not as good as class features but can add enough punch for an optimized eidolon to keep up with the party fighter in my experience (levels 1-7).
Now, add 5 levels of fighter to a biped and you get 11d10 HD, BAB +11, base Fort +9, Ref +3, Will +6, 9 feats, weapon training, and ability to take weapon specialization. You would take Lore Warden since you can't wear armour and get free Combat Expertise and +2 CMB/CMD.
Even if you take a 3/4 BAB class, you still have the best BAB and saves in the party (+9, +9/+3/+9) and HP similar to a 7th level fighter or barbarian (eidolon 55+Con vs Bbn 51+Con vs fighter 43+Con). Plus 6 feats, evolutions, and class features. Even with class features limited by the eidlon's low mental ability scores, I would be shocked if your eidolon wasn't just plain better than any other combat character in the party.
And as you level, the eidolon will improve on both fronts, so the gap doesn't close.
I think your eidolon will dominate everything at the table.
A 7th level eidolon has the BAB and HD of a 6th level fighter, with two good saves and +8 armour without any movement penalties. Physical ability scores could be 20/15/13 or 18/17/13. This is before evolutions, which are generally not as good as class features but can add enough punch for an optimized eidolon to keep up with the party fighter in my experience (levels 1-7).
Now, add 5 levels of fighter to a biped and you get 11d10 HD, BAB +11, base Fort +9, Ref +3, Will +6, 9 feats, weapon training, and ability to take weapon specialization. You would take Lore Warden since you can't wear armour and get free Combat Expertise and +2 CMB/CMD.
Even if you take a 3/4 BAB class, you still have the best BAB and saves in the party (+9, +9/+3/+9) and HP similar to a 7th level fighter or barbarian (eidolon 55+Con vs Bbn 51+Con vs fighter 43+Con). Plus 6 feats, evolutions, and class features. Even with class features limited by the eidlon's low mental ability scores, I would be shocked if your eidolon wasn't just plain better than any other combat character in the party.
And as you level, the eidolon will improve on both fronts, so the gap doesn't close.
i noticed how silly this could be, and am thinking of just running it as a gestalt eidolon//cohort instead of adding them together
