Need advice on class/role choice in a combat-heavy homebrew campaign.
The group includes myself and 4 other PCs. The party is currently level 5 and consists of: A standard two handed build fighter that hits very hard, a paladin who has about 26 AC and a tower shield focused on defense/tanking (but enemies tend to ignore him and focus on the other PCs due to his low dpr), a bard that orates, gives the fighter +2 str, then typically gets smacked down after firing an arrow or casting flaming sphere due to his low defenses, and a "healbot" kobold oracle that typically casts an aid or two and heals himself after taking life link damage and is nearly incapable of doing damage.
So far in 7 sessions I've lost two characters (wizard and a summoner) due to the difficulty and length of combat encounters. I know encounters are typically less than 6 rounds, but ours are generally 10-25 (30 min-2 hours) and the GM says that's how it should be. We generally get close to a TPK once every session or two and I feel like this is due to the length of the encounters. As a side note the encounters almost never consist of one BBEG, it's typically 4-8 enemies at a CR that feels 2-3 points higher than the APL. I feel like what is needed here in a fifth party member is a character that can shut down or delay a few enemies at the onset of the encounter.
Essentially, I think we need a Battlefield Control character like a "god" wizard. The group consists almost entirely of 10+ year D&D veterans but none of them (including the GM) really "believe in" the battlefield control style of character. They all think a wizard should cast magic missile/fireball over and over. They also keep hinting that they want me to play a rogue, but I played one before and found it underpowered. Furthermore, there has been a grand total of one trap (that couldn't be disarmed anyway) and zero locked doors or devices to disarm. The party bard has all social skills and knowledges covered, so the only point in playing a rogue is as a "glass cannon" style, which I think is inferior to a two weapon fighter (or the insane dpr Summoner that just died).
My idea is to play a BC wizard, whose backstory includes him working as some sort of military adviser/tactician. I think insane initiative, BC, haste, and "save or get pooped on" spells are what is needed to cut these crazy encounters into bite sized chunks that we can eat quickly enough to cut encounter times and casualties down.
I'll be creating my character in the next 4 days and will start at level 5 with standard wealth. Outside of character creation acquiring the gear you want or need is almost impossible, so I'm avoiding builds that require specific eq later down the line and need to get most essentials at creation. I would really appreciate any advice on builds, especially what roles or classes would fit best into the party we have. I apologize for the length, but I thought the details would help devise a build for the particular situation.
Thanks!
Essentially, I think we need a Battlefield Control character like a "god" wizard. The group consists almost entirely of 10+ year D&D veterans but none of them (including the GM) really "believe in" the battlefield control style of character. They all think a wizard should cast magic missile/fireball over and over. They also keep hinting that they want me to play a rogue, but I played one before and found it underpowered. Furthermore, there has been a grand total of one trap (that couldn't be disarmed anyway) and zero locked doors or devices to disarm. The party bard has all social skills and knowledges covered, so the only point in playing a rogue is as a "glass cannon" style, which I think is inferior to a two weapon fighter (or the insane dpr Summoner that just died).
My idea is to play a BC wizard, whose backstory includes him working as some sort of military adviser/tactician. I think insane initiative, BC, haste, and "save or get pooped on" spells are what is needed to cut these crazy encounters into bite sized chunks that we can eat quickly enough to cut encounter times and casualties down.
I'll be creating my character in the next 4 days and will start at level 5 with standard wealth. Outside of character creation acquiring the gear you want or need is almost impossible, so I'm avoiding builds that require specific eq later down the line and need to get most essentials at creation. I would really appreciate any advice on builds, especially what roles or classes would fit best into the party we have. I apologize for the length, but I thought the details would help devise a build for the particular situation.
Thanks!
You're on the right track with a battlefield control character. However I have a few questions about your campaign:
1. Given that you've already lost two casters, how do you plan on ensuring that a 3rd caster will survive?
2. 10-25 rounds of combat is an incredibly long time; in the game I'm currently playing in combat may go up to 15 rounds, but we're playing with max HP for PCs & NPCs, and combat only goes that long if we're fighting 10 or more opponents. I can't fathom how combat can go to 20 or more rounds without a lot of enemies. Are you using any house rules that are inflating the length of combat?
Have you read the Blockbuster Wizard guide? It explains pretty well how to split the difference between the God type wizard you want, and the blaster wizard your party wants.
Going a step further, since fights seem so fatal, why not increase your survivability by going the Eldritch Knight route? Strap on a reach weapon and you can also play battlefield control through that route as well.
You're on the right track with a battlefield control character. However I have a few questions about your campaign:
1. Given that you've already lost two casters, how do you plan on ensuring that a 3rd caster will survive?
2. 10-25 rounds of combat is an incredibly long time; in the game I'm currently playing in combat may go up to 15...
1.) The wizard died during the second real combat encounter we had. I got too aggressive with him, placing him out near the front line with the paladin and trying to use closer range spells like color spray. For one, I didn't realize how lethal these encounters would be, but mainly I knew that (since they don't really understand BC) they wouldn't hold their actions for the initial BC spells or work with me to position when appropriate. My fault for being reckless and not willing to be more assertive, that's why I'm going to roleplay my next character as an assertive former tactician, so maybe they will listen to me at least in character. I'll keep to the safest place possible and try to utilize more area control spells to funnel the enemies into the meat shields and away from the squishies. The summoner died because he was too squishy of a glass cannon who mounted his eidolon and rode into battle. Due to a homebrewed trap his eidolon was put under control by the enemy and he was in a situation where he was unarmed and basically had two chances to make a dc 17 str check or die (long story).
What I essentially took from the two characters' deaths was stay back and try to force the enemies to fight only the high AC meatshields (who barely get touched most encounters). The GM kind of seems to design encounters so that everyone with a less than 20 AC who does direct damage has a giant target painted on them.
2.) Most encounters go 10-15 rounds, but we've had two that went over 20. Usually the bard and sometimes my own character are either knocked unconscious, killed, petrified, etc. This leaves only the fighter and paladin as real damage dealers as the oracle can't do damage and honestly can't do anything useful if someone isn't hurt. The paladin's damage output is kind of "meh" and the pace of the battle slows to a crawl. The GM has told us he doesn't think combat should be very fast paced (over in 5-6 rounds or less) so he tailors the monsters towards that goal. In one case I was petrified by a basilisk for 2 hours of continuous combat real world time. Typically the battle starts with 2-4 enemies, then either another 2-4 appear or a mini boss appears attacking us from another direction. Then as we're finally making progress this happens again, or the room starts to fill with mind controlling gas, etc.
Have you read the Blockbuster Wizard guide? It explains pretty well how to split the difference between the God type wizard you want, and the blaster wizard your party wants.
Going a step further, since fights seem so fatal, why not increase your survivability by going the Eldritch Knight route? Strap on a reach weapon and you can also play battlefield control through that route as well.
I'm reading about both of them now, thanks for the suggestion!
Samsaran Witches can be great at battlefield control. Pick up Magical Lineage and Wayang Spellhunter, and you can cast Persistent Slow as a level 2 spell. If you can convince your party to use reach weapons, that tactic gets even better.
And Haste as a level 2 spell doesn't hurt either, especially with long combats.
That sounds insane, plus haste and slow seem to be particularly effective in this campaign. The summoner casting haste was useful every time he cast it, and the party has no problem understanding that buffs are useful. Thanks for the suggestion, I'll be sure to check it out.
Encounters that long seem like they would be REALLY taxing on full casters, especially at that level. Have you considered a Witch? Hexes are inexhaustible plus you get spells that can be very useful, from healing to control. They make superb compliments to martial-heavy parties.
Encounters that long seem like they would be REALLY taxing on full casters, especially at that level. Have you considered a Witch? Hexes are inexhaustible plus you get spells that can be very useful, from healing to control. They make superb compliments to martial-heavy parties.
Yes, they are really painful for the casters. Typically my summoner and the bard would use up 75%+ of our spells in one encounter. Thankfully, we usually have only one or two encounters per day, although each encounter is like having multiple normal difficulty encounters without any break between. I'll check out the witch for sure, inexhaustable debuffs sounds amazing.
Encounters that long seem like they would be REALLY taxing on full casters, especially at that level. Have you considered a Witch? Hexes are inexhaustible plus you get spells that can be very useful, from healing to control. They make superb compliments to martial-heavy parties.Yes, they are really painful for the casters. Typically my summoner and the bard would use up 75%+ of our spells in one encounter. Thankfully, we usually have only one or two encounters per day, although each encounter is like having multiple normal difficulty encounters without any break between. I'll check out the witch for sure, inexhaustable debuffs sounds amazing.
I could also recommend the Spirit Summoner. A player in our group is running one where he fights side by side with his eidolon to devastating effect. You get the buffs and you get to be a bad@ss in combat at the same time. Want to see a build?
I like the pit summoner idea, never saw anything like that when I was researching summoner builds. I know create pit is awesome as a control spell and it was definitely on my list for any caster that could use it. Also will be able to get 22 CHA for 2 bonus level 2 spells so that would help a bit with running out of casts. I feel like my summoner wouldn't have died if he wouldn't have been on the front lines all the time. The damage output by the eidolon helped us shut down enemies as well, so this is definitely on the list now too.
Glad I made an account so I could post here, thanks for the fresh ideas everyone!
I could also recommend the Spirit Summoner. A player in our group is running one where he fights side by side with his eidolon to devastating effect. You get the buffs and you get to be a bad@ss in combat at the same time. Want to see a build?Encounters that long seem like they would be REALLY taxing on full casters, especially at that level. Have you considered a Witch? Hexes are inexhaustible plus you get spells that can be very useful, from healing to control. They make superb compliments to martial-heavy parties.Yes, they are really painful for the casters. Typically my summoner and the bard would use up 75%+ of our spells in one encounter. Thankfully, we usually have only one or two encounters per day, although each encounter is like having multiple normal difficulty encounters without any break between. I'll check out the witch for sure, inexhaustable debuffs sounds amazing.
There are a lot of good options with a summoner and I know very little about the class. I'd really appreciate seeing a build.
There are a lot of good options with a summoner and I know very little about the class. I'd really appreciate seeing a build.
.
.Half-Elven 5th level Spirit Summoner (Battle Spirit)
Attributes: (20 point build)
STR - 18 (+2 racial bonus, +1 level bonus included)
DEX - 14
CON - 14
INT - 10
WIS - 8
CHA - 14
Traits:
Community Minded (Increases duration of Morale bonuses you give to allies by 2 rounds)
Heirloom Weapon (Falchion)
Feats:
1st - Extra Evolution
1st - Skill Focus: Survival
3rd - Weapon Focus: Falchion
5th - Extra Evolution
Spirit Ability:
Battle Spirit (+1 morale bonus to attack & damage 5 rounds/day)
Spells:
0 level - unlimited, 1st - 5, 2nd - 3
0 level (choose 6)
1st Enlarge Person, Mage Armor, Lesser Rejuvenate Eidolon, Shield
2nd Evolution Surge, Haste, Communal Protection vs. Evil
Gear:
+1 Falchion, +2 Chain Shirt, Cloak of Resistance +2, 500 gp of potions or whatever.
At 6th level you get your first Hex - I recommend the Healing Hex which will give you multiple uses of Cure Moderate Wounds (1/ally/day) and at 8th level take the Battle Master Hex.
Ultimately one of your goals is to take the Eldritch Heritage feat for the Orcish Bloodline - it will give you a powerful buff (Touch of Rage) that allows an ally to gain +X to attack and +X to damage where X equals half of level -2. Normally this would only last for 1 round but Community Minded extends this to 3 rounds. CM also lets you get more out of your Battle Spirit ability as you can turn it on for one round and then off for two, riding the extended effect.
You'll continue up the Eldritch Heritage chain, eventually taking Strength of the Beast (significant Strength buffs) and Power of Giants (massive combat buffs). You can read about them here. Make sure all future level attribute bonus go to Charisma.
Standing next to your Eidolon you'll have an AC of 20 (24 with Shield up) and will have a wicked swing with that falchion (or other weapon, perhaps something with reach?). you'll also have buffs out the wazoo to offer up to Eidolon and allies alike. If this looks like it interests you let me know, and I'll go into more detail abut how to build a powerful complimentary Eidolon.
I vote scarred witch doctor... Tons of hps... Lots of good abilities for enemies that are not much higher lvl.
There are a lot of good options with a summoner and I know very little about the class. I'd really appreciate seeing a build..
.
Half-Elven 5th level Spirit Summoner (Battle Spirit)Attributes: (20 point build)
STR - 18 (+2 racial bonus, +1 level bonus included)
DEX - 14
CON - 14
INT - 10
WIS - 8
CHA - 14Traits:
Community Minded (Increases duration of Morale bonuses you give to allies by 2 rounds)
Heirloom Weapon (Falchion)Feats:
1st - Extra Evolution
1st - Skill Focus: Survival
3rd - Weapon Focus: Falchion
5th - Extra EvolutionSpirit Ability:
Battle Spirit (+1 morale bonus to attack & damage 5 rounds/day)Spells:
0 level - unlimited, 1st - 5, 2nd - 3
0 level (choose 6)
1st Enlarge Person, Mage Armor, Lesser Rejuvenate Eidolon, Shield
2nd Evolution Surge, Haste, Communal Protection vs. EvilGear:
+1 Falchion, +2 Chain Shirt, Cloak of Resistance +2, 500 gp of potions or whatever.At 6th level you get your first Hex - I recommend the Healing Hex which will give you multiple uses of Cure Moderate Wounds (1/ally/day) and at 8th level take the Battle Master Hex.
Ultimately ....
I like this build. The heirloom trait is the only one of the two my GM would allow me but this doesn't really matter as it could just be tweaked slightly. Honestly it seems like a much more practical version of my last summoner. Didn't even know the spirit summoner existed, the hexes are a really nice addition. Question though, does the eldritch heritage allow you the higher level powers later? Because the way it reads it seems like you only get the 1st level ability. Thanks for the well detailed and formatted build! I'm leaning more towards battlefield control than buffs and dpr, but I'll keep this as an option. You don't have to be too specific, but generally what type of eidolon would you go with? Pouncer style? Sometimes we run into weird damage reduction so I thought if I made a summoner again in this campaign I might let him use manufactured weapons.
I vote scarred witch doctor... Tons of hps... Lots of good abilities for enemies that are not much higher lvl.
The SWD looks really good. Con as a casting stat is borderline broken. You can play one as half orc, right? Only problem I have noticed with witches is that they have limited ways to affect multiple enemies and tend to focus on shutting one down at a time. They lack some of the better BC spells. They do get web, glitterdust, and stinking cloud though, all of which I think are really good. Would it be good to open up with a single BC or area debuff spell and switch to debuffing one enemy?
I know I won't be able to get the awesome slow and haste as level 2 spells build that someone mentioned, as my GM doesn't seem to be big on allowing traits :(. However one of the patrons grants haste at level 6. Open with haste, then area effect, then debuff a single target? How would you play the first 3 rounds of encounters like the ones I described?