Fly spell / skill question

[Pathos]

With the fly spell, you gain good maneuverability with a bonus to fly checks equal to half your caster level.

For example, would the caster gain just a +5 bonus on fly checks, or would it be +9 (5 for caster level and 4 for maneuverability)?

[wraithstrike]

It would be +9. If they said the fly check bonus replaced the maneuverability bonus then it would be +5

[Nefreet]

There is actually some debate about whether you gain the maneuverability bonus or not.

The spell calls it out, so you'd think it would, but some GMs interpret the maneuverability bonus as only applying to creatures with a "natural" fly speed.

To further counter that, "natural" fly speed isn't defined anywhere, and creatures in the Bestiary with supernatural flight do have maneuverability bonuses factored into their statblock.

The argument seems evenly split, so be prepared to encounter GMs who will disagree with you on this.

If I'm your GM, you'd get the Caster Level Bonus and the +4.

[_Ozy_]

If you look at the boots of flying, it appears you only get the level/2 bonus, not the maneuverability bonus.

[DinosaursOnIce]

I'm a little confused by this, I'm not saying that I would disagree with it, but why exactly wouldn't you gain the maneuverability bonus?

How would the Feather Domains ability factor into the equation if you didn't gain the maneuverability bonus?

[Bob Bob Bob]

The debate rages about this line:

Fly skill wrote:

Creatures with a fly speed treat the Fly skill as a class skill. A creature with a natural fly speed receives a bonus (or penalty) on Fly skill checks depending on its maneuverability: Clumsy –8, Poor –4, Average +0, Good +4, Perfect +8. Creatures without a listed maneuverability rating are assumed to have average maneuverability.

Bolding mine. The debate is over if you do not have a natural fly speed (from, say, casting the Fly spell) then do you still receive the bonus/penalty to flying based on maneuverability.

Natural fly speed is also poorly defined in the rules (because "natural" means a totally different thing in a world with dragons and zombies) but it's fairly easy to define it as the Universal Monster Ability Flight (Ex, Sp, Su).

Even with this definition there's Winged Boots that give the 1/2 CL to flying (or the maneuverability bonus, the number is the same) but not any other bonuses. There's a monster with continuous Fly that does get the maneuverability bonus... but not the 1/2 CL. Checking skills on another monster with continuous Fly ended with nobody arriving at the published number, no matter what they included.

As for the Feather Domain... say hello to my friend original Prone Shooter. Which removed a penalty that didn't exist. Or the still existent form of Elephant Stomp, which allows you, if you succeed by enough on your overrun check, to instead stop and attack them. Which you could have just done in the first place.

The only conclusion we've been able to derive is that the developers make mistakes sometimes.

[DinosaursOnIce]

Okay, well I can see where they are coming from, but doesn't the Fly spell specifically call out that you gain a maneuverability level? I always assumed the spell essentially gave you a "natural fly speed" for the duration of the spell.

I don't usually like to comment on things but, to, me RAI seems you would gain a the maneuverability bonus, which is also backed up by the Feather Domain specifically calling out an increased maneuverability when you have flight granted to you magically.

Strange things indeed.

On a related/unrelated note, aren't issues with Monster Stat blocks a common thing? I don't have any proof on hand, but I seem to recall that many of the monsters stats don't work out when you break them down.

Anyways, put me in the camp that thinks you would have a +9 to your fly check.

[Lifat]

DinosaursOnIce wrote:

Okay, well I can see where they are coming from, but doesn't the Fly spell specifically call out that you gain a maneuverability level? I always assumed the spell essentially gave you a "natural fly speed" for the duration of the spell.

I don't usually like to comment on things but, to, me RAI seems you would gain a the maneuverability bonus, which is also backed up by the Feather Domain specifically calling out an increased maneuverability when you have flight granted to you magically.

Strange things indeed.

On a related/unrelated note, aren't issues with Monster Stat blocks a common thing? I don't have any proof on hand, but I seem to recall that many of the monsters stats don't work out when you break them down.

Anyways, put me in the camp that thinks you would have a +9 to your fly check.

Both RAW and RAI on this is being discussed and I think most people will say that neither side can prove their case beyond a reasonable doubt.

You are correct in thinking that it is strange that the maneuverability of fly spell does nothing if it isn't meant to refer to the natural fly speed modifier, (the same for the feather domain) but the nay sayers claim that it is a copy/paste relic from 3.5 and/or that the developers just aren't all agreeing or understanding each other. There are plenty of examples of feats that litterally did nothing so you can't really claim it as definitive proof.
Personally speaking I'm in the camp of thinking that RAW is unclear and that RAI is that it gives the maneuverability bonus/penalty.

[dragonhunterq]

Lifat wrote:

...

Personally speaking I'm in the camp of thinking that RAW is unclear and that RAI is that it gives the maneuverability bonus/penalty.

And so someone from the other side is posting - RAW I agree is unclear, but I see RAI that the level bonus as substituting for the skill bonus as it doesn't get it automatically being about as far from a natural fly speed as it's possible to get without being a steam powered airship. :)

[DinosaursOnIce]

Okay, I'll bite, I dug through the other thread(s), it's definitely not clear.

Personally I still think you get the bonus, I think natural flight versus magical flight isn't actually all that distinct. This makes me want to take a poll on how people run it in their games (for science!),

How do Eidolons play into this then? The 2 point Evolution clearly gives you a natural fly speed, but the 4 point evolution gives you magical flight with perfect maneuverability.

[Lifat]

Truth is that this either needs a FAQ or Errata to be laid to rest, but I doubt we will see one.

[LazarX]

DinosaursOnIce wrote:

I don't usually like to comment on things but, to, me RAI seems you would gain a the maneuverability bonus, which is also backed up by the Feather Domain specifically calling out an increased maneuverability when you have flight granted to you magically.

That's a specific grant by the domain, not a general rule.

[DinosaursOnIce]

That wasn't really the point, sure it's a specific case, but fly is a specific case, so are the boots of flying. The point/question is does the corner case of fly supersede the rule of "natural flight"?

The whole deal with the domain is that it only works if fly (or any spell) actually grants you a maneuverability level in the first place. It doesn't make sense for the domain to exist if magic flight doesn't give you a maneuverability. Clearly this doesn't mean it wasn't an error (or another prone shooter) but it does give additional kindling to the idea that flight is supposed to give you a maneuverability bonus.

To be clear, I no longer think it is as straightforward as I I originally did.

[Pathos]

TY for the responses guys, most appreciated.

It has given me some things to consider, as I'm the current DM for our group and the party Alchemist had just taken the Wings Discovery, it has left me wondering how his overall flight bonuses would/could/should be handled (extraordinary winged flight "as per the Fly spell").