Offensive Defense Stacking

[Charon's Little Helper]

Does the rogue talent "Offensive Defense" stack with itself if you hit with multiple attacks in a single turn, each of which give sneak attack?

Normally I'd say no - but it is a dodge bonus - and dodge bonuses are specifically called out as stacking with themselves.

[Dorian 'Grey']

I also have a 7th level rogue with that talent. We have been stacking them because they are dodge bonuses and it says each sneak attack die.

[Xethik]

I believe bonuses (dodge or untyped or whatever) do not stack if they are from the same source. Now, is Offensive Defense the source? Is each attack a source?

[Imbicatus]

Dodge bonuses explicitly stack with everything, and rogues need all the help they can get.

I say let them stack. It's not like they aren't going to die the first time they get hit with a phantasmal killer if it does.

[Koshimo]

the way my group played it was one of two options (especially since with how we were playing my rogues ac was 20 higher than the rest of the party anyways) either the offensive defense stacked but only against the target of the sneak attack because that makes sense, or it didnt stack and only went off once, but you got it against all combatants

[Gauss]

Generally, bonuses from the same source do not stack with themselves.

Additionally, we have this FAQ:

FAQ wrote:

Rogue: Does the dodge bonus from the “offensive defensive” rogue talent (page 131) stack with itself? Does it apply to everyone, or just to the target I’m attacking?

There are two issues relating to this rogue talent.

One, in the first printing it provided a +1 circumstance bonus against the attacked target, which was a very weak ability. The second printing update changed it from a circumstance bonus to a dodge bonus, but accidentally omitted the “against that creature” text, which made it a very strong ability.

Two, it doesn’t specify whether the dodge bonus stacks with itself, and because this creates a strange place in the rules where bonuses don’t stack from the same source but dodge bonuses always stack. While we haven’t reached a final decision on what to do about this talent, we are leaning toward this solution: the dodge bonus only applies against the creature you sneak attacked, and the dodge bonus does not stack with itself. This prevents you from getting a dodge bonus to AC against a strong creature by sneak attacking a weak creature, and prevents you from reaching an absurdly high AC by sneak attacking multiple times in the same round.

While it is not a hard limit (because of the 'leaning toward' statement) it clearly provides some intent on limiting it.

[Artoo]

There's an FAQ for this:

Check it out

[Charon's Little Helper]

Gauss wrote:

Generally, bonuses from the same source do not stack with themselves.

Additionally, we have this FAQ:

FAQ wrote:

Rogue: Does the dodge bonus from the “offensive defensive” rogue talent (page 131) stack with itself? Does it apply to everyone, or just to the target I’m attacking?

There are two issues relating to this rogue talent.

One, in the first printing it provided a +1 circumstance bonus against the attacked target, which was a very weak ability. The second printing update changed it from a circumstance bonus to a dodge bonus, but accidentally omitted the “against that creature” text, which made it a very strong ability.

Two, it doesn’t specify whether the dodge bonus stacks with itself, and because this creates a strange place in the rules where bonuses don’t stack from the same source but dodge bonuses always stack. While we haven’t reached a final decision on what to do about this talent, we are leaning toward this solution: the dodge bonus only applies against the creature you sneak attacked, and the dodge bonus does not stack with itself. This prevents you from getting a dodge bonus to AC against a strong creature by sneak attacking a weak creature, and prevents you from reaching an absurdly high AC by sneak attacking multiple times in the same round.

While it is not a hard limit (because of the 'leaning toward' statement) it clearly provides some intent on limiting it.

Is it just me - or does that sound like they're not actually answering the question at all - but instead giving a sneak peek of future errata with no current impact?

Because it only working on the creature you sneak attacked is NOT the current rule at all.

(This does give me the amusing idea of wearing a bandolier of blinded/paralyzed mice to sneak attack in order to boost one's AC. :P)

[Gauss]

Yeah, it was a FAQ that wasn't really a FAQ. They really need to revisit this. But, in my home games I use this FAQ since it is a good idea and seems appropriately balanced.

[Komoda]

So, are they saying that the dodge bonus from Offensive Defensive doesn't stack with itself, or any other dodge bonus as well?

In addition, what do you guys think about its interaction with Sap Master? If the normal sneak attack is 3 dice, and it is 6 with Sap Master, does that make it a +6 Dodge Bonus?

[Gauss]

They are saying that the Dodge bonus from Offensive Defensive does not stack with itself. Not that it does not stack with other dodge bonuses.

[Chengar Qordath]

Gauss wrote:

Yeah, it was a FAQ that wasn't really a FAQ. They really need to revisit this. But, in my home games I use this FAQ since it is a good idea and seems appropriately balanced.

I really hate Paizo's policy of only issuing errata when there's a new printing of the book.

[Komoda]

That is kind of what I guessed, thanks.