question on hospitaler paladin with meditation crystal

[Keolin Portara]

I had a player the other day playing a hospitaler paladin that was using a meditation crystal to dramatically increase damage output from radiant charge (by increasing the number of his lay on hands available to him). Is that legal in general for PFS? It seems rather dramatically overpowered.

Also, is it possible for him to start a scenario with the meditation crystal already activated, or does he have to expend channel uses within the scenario for this? I'm leaning towards the latter.

Is there a cap for the number of channels a meditation crystal can hold?

EDIT: I changed smite evil to radiant charge, realized my mistake after I posted.

[Nefreet]

I don't understand how it's overpowered.

Expend two uses of Lay on Hands... For one use of Lay on Hands?

Unless you mean solely for the purpose of overcharging it.

Though I don't see anywhere that the crystal can hold more than one charge. And certainly not for the price of 100gp.

[Keolin Portara]

He's using channel energies to charge it, not lay on hand uses, per the paladin archetype.

[Keolin Portara]

and can you use multiple crystals to stack up a huge number of lay on hands uses? it appears this character owns 11 crystals for this purpose, to expend them all for radiant charge at once as a little atomic paladin.

[Kigvan]

Hospitilars have a separate pool of channels from their lay on Hands, using their Channels to charge the crystals and then using that to add to the number of their LOH.

My understanding is that each crystal only holds 1 charge and only for 24 hours max, so no starting the scenario with charged crystals. You can buy and charge more than one though. I am also pretty certain they can only be used to restore used LOH uses, not increase you beyond your normal limit/day.

I have a paladin that carries multiples to charge during days of travel, and use the following day, this sometimes works and sometimes doesn't depending upon the scenario, but he is not a hospitalar, nor does he have radiant charge.

[Nefreet]

Ah, got it.

So, charging with one Channel, and getting one Lay on Hands in return?

That still doesn't seem like a problem.

One heals multiple people for the same amount that the other heals a single person.

[Nefreet]

I also don't see how he can combine these crystals with Radiant Charge, either.

It reads, "expend all of your remaining uses of lay on hands".

Those stored up in items wouldn't count.

Edit: plus, it takes one minute (10 rounds) to gain that use of Lay on Hands, so it's certainly not something he can do in the midst of combat.

[Harley Quinn X]

Nefreet wrote:

I also don't see how he can combine these crystals with Radiant Charge, either.

It reads, "expend all of your remaining uses of lay on hands".

Those stored up in items wouldn't count.

OP's player's assumption is that he goes above his allotted number of uses of LOH when he uses a crystal. Assuming he had X number of LOH, and Y number of crystals, he thinks that it gets him an extra X+Y d6s of damage if he used all the crystals before a fight.

The crystals don't take you above your maximum number of LOH. The crystal only restores one use of it that's been used, not give you an extra use.

[Nefreet]

Ah. Yes, I agree.

[Kigvan]

I think what one could do with them though is be able to make radiant charges in multiple different combats (given enough time between them to restore uses used the first time). Overall I don't really have a problem with this (trading a lot of healing potential for some damage), but clearly you can't go over your normal uses per day.

Edit - Though it can certainly be a problem if used as the OP posted to go over the limit.

[Nefreet]

Kigvan wrote:

I think what one could do with them though is be able to make radiant charges in multiple different combats (given enough time between them to restore uses used the first time). Overall I don't really have a problem with this (trading a lot of healing potential for some damage), but clearly you can't go over your normal uses per day.

^ same here.

[Eric Brittain]

The only way that I can see for a PC to go above their number of uses of LoH in a day using this item is to within the PFS scenario is to pay for or arrange to have a cleric of their God charge the meditation crystals, thus providing the ability to recover uses of LoH after using radiant charge and being out of combat (or in a very long drawn out combat)

[Wraith235]

by the math IF they have enough crystals I can see 3 radiant Charges in one day (IN THEORY- as long as the scenario sets its-self up right)

well assume Day 0 is a travel day prior to arrival

3PM Day 0 Charge Set #1
8am Day 1 Charge Set #2
Noon Day 1 - Blow Radiant Charge
------------ Regain Uses from Crystal set 1
1pm Day 1 - Blow Radiant Charge
------------ Regain Uses from Crystal set 2
7pm Day 1 - Blow Radiant Charge

yes its a bit OP ... but Ive seen Worse ( heck some of my characters ARE worse)

but as long as everything falls into place ... sure .. Looks legit

as for paying a cleric for their LoH uses .... I dont even think thats possible .. its not listed in the spellcasting services is it ?

[LazarX]

Keolin Portara wrote:

I had a player the other day playing a hospitaler paladin that was using a meditation crystal to dramatically increase damage output from radiant charge (by increasing the number of his lay on hands available to him). Is that legal in general for PFS? It seems rather dramatically overpowered.

Also, is it possible for him to start a scenario with the meditation crystal already activated, or does he have to expend channel uses within the scenario for this? I'm leaning towards the latter.

Is there a cap for the number of channels a meditation crystal can hold?

EDIT: I changed smite evil to radiant charge, realized my mistake after I posted.

The crystal holds NOTHING. All it does is enable a channler, a Ki user, etc. to get one use back, assuming he's already expended said use. There is nothing in the text that says it can push the character over his/her normal storage. I'm assuming that the player is claiming he can do is expend all his channels on a radiant charge plus one extra from the crystal... that's a negatory because it does not operate that way.

[LazarX]

Kigvan wrote:

Hospitilars have a separate pool of channels from their lay on Hands, using their Channels to charge the crystals and then using that to add to the number of their LOH.

Incorrect. Hospitallers treat their channels entirely separate from their Lay On Hands. They don't use one to fuel the other.

[DesolateHarmony]

LazarX wrote:

Kigvan wrote:

Hospitilars have a separate pool of channels from their lay on Hands, using their Channels to charge the crystals and then using that to add to the number of their LOH.

Incorrect. Hospitallers treat their channels entirely separate from their Lay On Hands. They don't use one to fuel the other.

That is what Kigvan said. The reference is that Hospitalers have a separate pool of channels, and it isn't powered by Lay on Hands. Then it goes on to say that they charge their own Meditation Crystals with their channels, and use those to power up their Lay on Hands.

This was in response to someone assuming channels worked like a normal paladin's, and it would be a waste to spend Lay on Hands to power channels to recover Lay on Hands.

[LazarX]

DesolateHarmony wrote:

LazarX wrote:

Kigvan wrote:

Hospitilars have a separate pool of channels from their lay on Hands, using their Channels to charge the crystals and then using that to add to the number of their LOH.

Incorrect. Hospitallers treat their channels entirely separate from their Lay On Hands. They don't use one to fuel the other.

That is what Kigvan said. The reference is that Hospitalers have a separate pool of channels, and it isn't powered by Lay on Hands. Then it goes on to say that they charge their own Meditation Crystals with their channels, and use those to power up their Lay on Hands.

This was in response to someone assuming channels worked like a normal paladin's, and it would be a waste to spend Lay on Hands to power channels to recover Lay on Hands.

The crystals don't work that way. They are a once a day recharge of one power use, not a receptacle that you can refill at any time.

[kinevon]

LazarX wrote:

DesolateHarmony wrote:

LazarX wrote:

Kigvan wrote:

Hospitilars have a separate pool of channels from their lay on Hands, using their Channels to charge the crystals and then using that to add to the number of their LOH.

Incorrect. Hospitallers treat their channels entirely separate from their Lay On Hands. They don't use one to fuel the other.

That is what Kigvan said. The reference is that Hospitalers have a separate pool of channels, and it isn't powered by Lay on Hands. Then it goes on to say that they charge their own Meditation Crystals with their channels, and use those to power up their Lay on Hands.

This was in response to someone assuming channels worked like a normal paladin's, and it would be a waste to spend Lay on Hands to power channels to recover Lay on Hands.

The crystals don't work that way. They are a once a day recharge of one power use, not a receptacle that you can refill at any time.

The OP says the Paladin has 11 of them.

So, he can use up one of his Hospitaler Channels to charge each one.
Later, he can spend one minute, per crystal, regaining a used Lay-on-Hands, up to a maximum of one per day per crystal charged with a Channel within the past 24 hours, and never past his normal maximum limit of Lay-on-Hand uses for the day, so only regaining a used LoH, not gaining extra above-and-beyond.

Would be more ... interesting ... with the Mercy that uses 10 LoH to do a Raise Dead...

[Kigvan]

kinevon wrote:

Would be more ... interesting ... with the Mercy that uses 10 LoH to do a Raise Dead...

I used this tactic a few times with my now level 12 paladin (during games that had travel or downtime baked into the scenario, as he was not a Hospitalar).

There were several times he used ultimate mercy on NPCs that had gotten killed, such as on some guards that got killed by a hazard that the PC's were near.

[SCPRedMage]

Actually, I can't find anything that implies that a given meditation crystal can only be used once per day; the only restriction seems to be once per charge, and that it only retains a charge for a maximum of 24 hours. So once you use a crystal, you can charge it with another use of channel energy, and use it to regain another use of lay on hands, repeatable until you run out of channel energy.

And no, there isn't such a restriction under the channel foci rules, either.

That said, consider a paladin that dumps all of his channels into a series of meditation crystals at the end of the day, right before he rests; since there are no rules indicating that the charge will expire at any time other than when it is used or after 24 hours, nor that a charged crystal would prevent a character from regaining the channel expended as normal, a hospitaler can conceivably power their lay on hands with yesterday's channel energy.

As a side note, meditation crystals are why my PFS hospitaler can raise two allies a day using Ultimate Mercy once she hits level six, or two at her current level (five), assuming she has at least one charged crystal from the prior day left.