My friend wants to join an ongoing campaign I'm in. It'll be his first tabletop gaming experience so he's asking me to help build his dude. He wants to play as either a Dwarf or Half-Orc and specialize in crafting stuff (magical and mundane) for the whole party. I've never tried a crafting specialist before, so I'm turning to you guys for advice :) Hoping for advice on optimal classes, class options, feats, skills, starting equipment, etc.
For clarification, some limitations our DM puts on us:
- Paizo products only. That includes no 3.5 conversions :(
- No traits/drawbacks, sorry!
- Alternate race options and class archetypes are totally allowed, though.
- At this point in the campaign, he'd start at level 4.
So I reckoned a Wizard would be the best class for him to take, presumably without multi-classing, and getting By starting at lv.4 he can get Craft Wondrous Item right off the bat, too. I also reckoned a Dwarf with the Craftsman alternate racial trait would be awesome here. Just wasn't sure what other options would be good for him. Any advice?
Quote: No traits/drawbacks Can traits be purchased via the "additional traits" feat? Not sure if you'll have enough feats for it to make sense as a pick, but it could be an option.
Quote: So I reckoned a Wizard would be the best class for him to take, presumably without multi-classing, and getting By starting at lv.4 he can get Craft Wondrous Item right off the bat, too Hit the nail on the head; the wizard has a broad spell list to meet item prerequisites, has an easy time with those intelligence-based craft/spellcraft checks, and gets bonus feats that can be used for crafting. It's a real no-brainer if you want to craft many different kinds of items.
Quote: I also reckoned a Dwarf with the Craftsman alternate racial trait would be awesome here. I'd go with Half-Orc to apply the floating bonus to intelligence. Since almost all skill checks in magical item crafting are intelligence based, the wizard has a trivially easy time hitting the DC's. There's really no point in boosting things further, and the intelligence increase is the most valuable racial bonus you're going to get.
For your choice of specialization, the most reliable pick is the Teleportation specialist Conjuror. He essentially gets a "get out of jail free" card 3+int times per day. With the dimensional agility feat, this means the wizard will virtually never have to worry about provoking attacks of opportunity when casting. For opposition schools, the typical suggestion is evocation/enchantment since those are the most narrow schools, but really the golden rule is not to oppose transmutation and conjuration; everything is free game. If you want to be a generalist, the Exploiter Wizard is the only archetype even worth consideration IMO.
Mundane crafting is mechanically not worth the effort, so magical crafting is where it is at. With that in mind here are some things to consider:
1. The only skill you will be using for magical crafting is Spellcraft. For all of the magical crafting feats. Nothing else needs to be used. Also you can take 10 on crafting checks.
2. If a character has a spell like ability, then they count as having a caster level as far as feats are concerned. So that means any race that gets a spell like ability can take crafting feats without actually being a casting class.
3. Pretty much all crafting requirements can be ignored by adding a +5 to the craft DC, barring the need for the crafting feat and having access to the spell for consumables like potions and scrolls. That means that you can craft whatever you want at any level as long as you have the money and the appropriate Spellcraft modifier.
With that in mind the character can pretty much be anything the player wants, but if he doesn't want to be a magic class then he needs to pick up a spell like ability from somewhere. In the core races that means elves (alternate racial trait), gnomes or half elves (alt racial); that list expands dramatically if you are also using non-core races. If you allow the feat Extra Traits, there are also some traits that give crappy spell like abilities that can act as qualifiers; if you need to do that then most likely spellcraft also isn't a class skill, so the second trait could be to get it as one with a +1 trait bonus on it to boot.
That said, getting a familiar (through class features or the feat Eldritch Heritage: Arcane) is great for crafters due to the familiar archetype Valet; It lets you double the amount you can craft each day through the Able Assistant Ability.
Huge thanks for the super fast and informative replies so far, guys :)
For a little more background, besides the DM and I, everyone in this campaign is playing their first tabletop game, hence my friend turning to me for help. But I've only ever played either frontline martial bruisers or sneaky rogue types, so I'm completely out of my depth when it comes to crafters and "pure" casters @_@; The advice given is a huge help.
Dasrak wrote: Can traits be purchased via the "additional traits" feat? Not sure if you'll have enough feats for it to make sense as a pick, but it could be an option. Hadn't considered it, and honestly I doubt my DM has. I'll ask him, but I doubt he'd be up for it.
Dasrak wrote: Hit the nail on the head; the wizard has a broad spell list to meet item prerequisites, has an easy time with those intelligence-based craft/spellcraft checks, and gets bonus feats that can be used for crafting. It's a real no-brainer if you want to craft many different kinds of items.
[...]
I'd go with Half-Orc to apply the floating bonus to intelligence. Since almost all skill checks in magical item crafting are intelligence based, the wizard has a trivially easy time hitting the DC's. There's really no point in boosting things further, and the intelligence increase is the most valuable racial bonus you're going to get.
That makes a lot of sense. See above about me being super ignorant when it comes to casters; I'm a little surprised I guessed even half right :P
Dasrak wrote: For your choice of specialization, the most reliable pick is the Teleportation specialist Conjuror. He essentially gets a "get out of jail free" card 3+int times per day. With the dimensional agility feat, this means the wizard will virtually never have to worry about provoking attacks of opportunity when casting. For opposition schools, the typical suggestion is evocation/enchantment since those are the most narrow schools, but really the golden rule is not to oppose transmutation and conjuration; everything is free game. If you want to be a generalist, the Exploiter Wizard is the only archetype even worth consideration IMO. We were so caught up thinking about how to optimize his crafting abilities we didn't even think about his combat role lol. Thanks for the heads up on these.
chaoseffect wrote: Mundane crafting is mechanically not worth the effort, so magical crafting is where it is at...
[...]
1. The only skill you will be using for magical crafting is Spellcraft. For all of the magical crafting feats. Nothing else needs to be used. Also you can take 10 on crafting checks.
Noted, thanks!
chaoseffect wrote: 2. If a character has a spell like ability, then they count as having a caster level as far as feats are concerned. So that means any race that gets a spell like ability can take crafting feats without actually being a casting class. I actually didn't know that! My friend's really insistent on playing either a Dwarf or Half-Orc, though. I think he just likes being tough-looking "ugly" races. It's good info to keep in my back pocket for later though. I seriously need to branch out from martial characters someday.
chaoseffect wrote: 3. Pretty much all crafting requirements can be ignored by adding a +5 to the craft DC, barring the need for the crafting feat and having access to the spell for consumables like potions and scrolls. That means that you can craft whatever you want at any level as long as you have the money and the appropriate Spellcraft modifier. Is that true? The Paizo page for Magic Item Creation says:
"The DC to create a magic item increases by 5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory. In addition, you cannot create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items without meeting its prerequisites."
Am I misunderstanding that? I've never made a crafter nor tried crafting so I could be.
chaoseffect wrote: With that in mind the character can pretty much be anything the player wants, but if he doesn't want to be a magic class then he needs to pick up a spell like ability from somewhere. In the core races that means elves (alternate racial trait), gnomes or half elves (alt racial); that list expands dramatically if you are also using non-core races. If you allow the feat Extra Traits, there are also some traits that give crappy spell like abilities that can act as qualifiers; if you need to do that then most likely spellcraft also isn't a class skill, so the second trait could be to get it as one with a +1 trait bonus on it to boot. Good to know! I'll talk it over with him so he knows he doesn't have to be married to a pure caster class, see what he thinks. Again, I doubt my DM's gonna allow the Extra Traits feat, but on the off-chance he does, it'll open a lot of options as far as class goes, as per your suggestions :)
chaoseffect wrote: That said, getting a familiar (through class features or the feat Eldritch Heritage: Arcane) is great for crafters due to the familiar archetype Valet; It lets you double the amount you can craft each day through the Able Assistant Ability. This is pretty awesome to know :D
Mr. Belpit wrote: Is that true? The Paizo page for Magic Item Creation says:
"The DC to create a magic item increases by 5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory. In addition, you cannot create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items without meeting its prerequisites."
Am I misunderstanding that? I've never made a crafter nor tried crafting so I could be.
I'm not sure I understand you as the quote is pretty much what I said. Look at the sentence directly after what you bolded; it adds on to the exception of what can't be discarded with an increased DC. That whole bit could stand to be reworded a bit though as that next sentence makes a liar of the previous one.
Quick follow-up question:
The world our DM has created makes it hard to get our hands on enchanted/magical items, and even masterwork items are hard to come by for various reasons. Is it at all worth it for my friend to get the "Masterwork Transformation" spell to masterwork, then enchant, some of our existing stuff? Or is it better to make magical stuff from the ground up?
edit:
chaoseffect wrote: I'm not sure I understand you as the quote is pretty much what I said. Look at the sentence directly after what you bolded; it adds on to the exception of what can't be discarded with an increased DC. That whole bit could stand to be reworded a bit though as that next sentence makes a liar of the previous one. Whoops sorry, you're right, I completely misread your tip!
Mr. Belpit wrote: Quick follow-up question:
The world our DM has created makes it hard to get our hands on enchanted/magical items, and even masterwork items are hard to come by for various reasons. Is it at all worth it for my friend to get the "Masterwork Transformation" spell to masterwork, then enchant, some of our existing stuff? Or is it better to make magical stuff from the ground up?
It takes a ridiculously long time to make anything with the Craft skill, especially something masterwork. That leaves you in a bit of a bind as an item needs to be masterwork before it can be enchanted. That leaves you needing to find masterwork gear to enchant or Masterwork Transformation as you said; if spoils of war really will be that tight then someone having access to Masterwork Transformation would most likely be necessary, but the crafter in question doesn't necessarily need to be the one to have it if you have any other prepared casters in the party.
chaoseffect wrote: It takes a ridiculously long time to make anything with the Craft skill, especially something masterwork. That leaves you in a bit of a bind as an item needs to be masterwork before it can be enchanted. That leaves you needing to find masterwork gear to enchant or Masterwork Transformation as you said; if spoils of war really will be that tight then someone having access to Masterwork Transformation would most likely be necessary, but the crafter in question doesn't necessarily need to be the one to have it if you have any other prepared casters in the party. Cool, I think he'll have to be the one to do it; the only other casters in our party are a Cleric and a Bard, and both of them were unsold on the utility of that spell despite the present mundanity of all our equipment. Maybe it's because it's their first campaign, but they don't like taking spells/feats that aren't directly applicable in combat. All the more power to them!
Mr. Belpit wrote: Cool, I think he'll have to be the one to do it; the only other casters in our party are a Cleric and a Bard, and both of them were unsold on the utility of that spell despite the present mundanity of all our equipment. Maybe it's because it's their first campaign, but they don't like taking spells/feats that aren't directly applicable in combat. All the more power to them! Clerics have access to literally every spell on their list and change their spells each day. The cleric wouldn't need to walk around with it prepared each day, but only take it when appropriate, like when your party wants to do some magic item crafting; at most it is a minor inconvenience for a single day.
I'm not meaning to be harsh on your cleric; I'm just stressing this so that your friend doesn't think he needs to be pigeon-holed into a class he doesn't necessarily want for access to a spell someone in your party can already cast if necessary nearly on a whim.
I'm playing a crafting specialist wizard at the moment:
Thassilonian transmutation focused with the enchantment subschool. I took additional traits at first level, and the racial variant for focused study (swaps my feat for 3x skill focus feats).
I had played some PFS, so I really wanted to do the crafting all the way. Here's what I took:
Traits (Keep in mind you can only have 1 of each type)
- Inner Beauty (Shelyn) +4 to craft/diplomacy/perform 1/day
- Transmuter of Korada; +1 Caster Level transmutation
- Clever Wordplay; Int to UMD
- Merchant Family; Sell goods at 60% value
F1: Additional Traits
FHuman1: Skill Focus (Spellcraft)
FWiz1: Scribe Scroll
F3: Craft Wondrous
F5: Craft Arms & Armor
FWiz5: Inscribe Magic Tattoo
F7: Dazing Spell
FHuman8: Skill Focus (UMD)
F9: Craft Rod
FWiz10: Heighten Spell
F11: Quicken Spell
Arcane Bond - Greensting Scorpion Valet Familiar;
The valet familiar gives boni to all your crafting and spellcraft checks, accelerates your crafting through cooperative crafting feat, and counts as having your feats/skill ranks for crafting. Wow!
I made a variety of thematic choices for my PC, as a master artisan, and boosted my crafting skills. This is entirely unnecessary, but for the moment I have a +30 spellcraft and a +25 UMD. I have never failed a spellcraft check, and I always accelerate everything. Between skill ranks, familiar, trait, and crafter's fortune spell, I can easily have a +35 to all my painting/sculpture/jewelry craft checks which covers quite a bit via Fabricate, Masterwork Transformation, and 5x Craft Feats.
Also, I took the transmutation thassilonian specialist as it gives another transmutation spell/day. Annihilation spectacles (which I could create) allow a character to freely swap any transmutation spells, which essentially makes a spontaneous caster for 2+ spellslots per day.
I also did the Heightened Dazing Snapdragon Fireworks and took quicken spell to maximize actions/round - dazing monsters as a move action, casting as a standard and the option to cast with a swift.
It's a long wait, but the fabricate spell eliminates the waiting game on masterwork mundane items. Our druid wanted some wildshape armor, so I just cast fabricate, made the craft check, he cast ironwood, and we enchanted the armor all in 1 day.
I hope that helps...
chaoseffect wrote: Clerics have access to literally every spell on their list and change their spells each day. The cleric wouldn't need to walk around with it prepared each day, but only take it when appropriate, like when your party wants to do some magic item crafting; at most it is a minor inconvenience for a single day.
I'm not meaning to be harsh on your cleric; I'm just stressing this so that your friend doesn't think he needs to be pigeon-holed into a class he doesn't necessarily want for access to a spell someone in your party can already cast if necessary nearly on a whim.
Nah, if anything you should be harsh on me; our Cleric's playing her first tabletop game and is still getting the hang of a lot of the mechanical details, whereas I have no excuse at my experience level :P I'm making a promise to myself to make a caster for my next character; I'm long, long overdue for trying one out.
Thanks for the heads up, though. We have one more session before my friend joins in, and our last session ended with our party in a relatively safe town, so with this knowledge in mind we could start masterworking our equipment before my friend jumps in.
Quick question about the Masterwork Transformation spell, then, since the party's collective knowledge about magic is embarrassingly low: part of the components include "magical reagents worth the cost difference between a normal item and the equivalent masterwork item". I'm a little fuzzy on how non-negligibly-priced material components work. Would that just mean we could sacrifice any items equivalent to that cost? Could we straight up just sacrifice the equivalent gold/silver/etc pieces? Is this the kind of thing the DM makes a call on?
Benjamin Milarch wrote: I'm playing a crafting specialist wizard at the moment:
[snipped for brevity]
I hope that helps...
It does, thanks!
My DM ultimately decided to nix the Extra Traits feat because he wants to keep traits out of the game, but I showed this to my friend and he thinks the general thrust of your character comes very close to what he has in mind. Your post is going to come in handy as a rough level advancement guide for him.
He's p set on being a Dwarf Wizard now, but between this and the advice from chaoseffect and Dasrak I think we have the pieces we need to make the character he wants, plus a lot of additional tips that'll be good to have in mind for making future characters. HUGE thanks to everyone who posted advice, this is my first thread and it's been absolutely awesome how responsive and informative the community's been :D
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