The Paladin and his Animal Companion: Viable?

[KainTheGreat]

Hi everybody!

I just started Pathfinder and started a Paladin. I read a lot of post/books/website about the paladin class, feats and skills. But then I may have found somethig to make my class especially different from the usual holy paladin "I'll smite your head you dead thing" type. I'm a Human Paladin (so 2 feats when starting) but I also like the fact of having a pet. Is it possible to have a viable build for a Paladin to have a companion with this build:

Feats:
lvl 1)Feat 1: Power Attack -or- Weapon Focus: Falchion;
lvl 1)Feat 2: Nature bond;
lvl 3)Feat 3) Animal Ally;
lvl 5,7,...) Feat 4,5,...: ...;

Skills:
Diplomacy;
Handle Animal;
...;

Attributes:
Usual Paladin attributes;

"The Divine Bond" spell stipulate that the animal companion act as the druid animal companion and it takes the character paladin level as the effective druid level. Then, the Animal Ally Feat stipule that if you have "Divine Bond" after having Animal Ally, the effective druid level stack with that granted by other sources.

I'm not understanding this part but I interprete this as if my level was the same one as my pet. Isn't it insane that if you sacrifice two feats (nature bond and animal ally) for a spec (two handed paladin) that isn't very "feat dependant".

In your opinion:
1) Do you think sacrifying two feats for a powerful animal companion is worth it?
2) Should I choose power attack or Weapon Focus for my first feat?
3) Can you explain me how I can calculate the level of my future companion?
4) Is there a way I can use my pet without loosing my mouvment points in combat?

!!!Thanks!!!

PS: Having an armored bear that I can mount and that is litteraly a big ball of life is worth two feat!

[lemeres]

animal companions have an ability that lets you handle them as a free action.

Not sure if it is worth it. Particularly since you have a mount (which is an animal companion with restricted options- mostly horse for medium characters, and dogs or boars for small ones).

Also, have you considered the cavalier class? It is somewhat similar to paladin (it has a the challenge class feature that lets them add their level to damage against 1 opponent). That class has a mount from the get go, and it has an archetype that lets you choose from most animal companion options.

[Chengar Qordath]

If you do want to run a Paladin, there are a couple options for expanding your selection of mounts:

First, if you're a half-orc or have a GM who doesn't mind a little house-ruling, there's Beast Rider. You can also pick up Monstrous Mount to add a couple nice choices, even if they took away the best features of those mounts because Martials Can't Have Nice Things.

[KainTheGreat]

Actually, I wont a companion pet while I fight! Wouldn't it be overpowered?

Me as the usual Two-Handed Paladin smashing the hell out pretty much anything (I'm starting level one with 2 d4 + 8 Damage when I use my falchion in 2H). And then, I would have this monstruous pet (I was thinking about an armored bear)that would follow me and bring hell over my ennemies head.

How is that not overpowered?!? Is there restriction that I'm not aware of? Especially when you control it as a free action! What are the limits?

Just imagine Tyrael stricking with the Dovabear, wouldn't that be awesome?! (Just kiddin!)

[lemeres]

The limits on an animal companion is that it is basically a fighter without feats due to how its BAB and strength bonuses work out. Nice to have as another warm body on the field, but it eventually gets rather overshadowed. That is why you usually pick something with some other gimmick to keep it useful (wolves with trip, horses as mounts, rocs that can be flying mounts, I know there is a dinosaur that can stun with its natural attack, etc.)

It also needs to be equipped separately (which can be a money sink, particularly when dealing with an amulet of mighty fists).

Also, standard animal companions are rather....well unintelligent. That is why you need to use handle animal so much. Now, interestingly, the paladin's mount (that comes with the divine bond feature) is actually a fully intelligent creature with 6 INT. Make of that what you will.

[Imbicatus]

I have seen Nagaji paladins with a mount that was smarter than they were.

[Mystic_Snowfang]

... just take boon companion at level 5, that will bring your companion up to level and spend one feat

[Chengar Qordath]

Mystic_Snowfang wrote:

... just take boon companion at level 5, that will bring your companion up to level and spend one feat

Paladins already get a full-level mount, so Boon Companion would do nothing.

[Supperman]

What if you took Divine Bond:Weapon, and then Animal Ally and Boon Companion? Animal Ally and Paladin don't give bears though.

[lemeres]

Mystic_Snowfang wrote:

... just take boon companion at level 5, that will bring your companion up to level and spend one feat

With animal ally, the earliest you can take the feat is level 5 (since you need 4 levels beforehand). So you have to wait until level 7 to take boon companion.

Although, again, the mount from divine bond is not exactly bad, it has full progression without any trouble, and it has int 6 for 'disney movie animal buddy' fun. And considering that neither the class for feat give bears anyway .... (you can get bears with a beastmaster cavalier, or maybe elephants and rhinos and dinosaurs with the beast master racial feat for half orcs)

[KainTheGreat]

lemeres wrote:

And considering that neither the class for feat give bears anyway .... (you can get bears with a beastmaster cavalier, or maybe elephants and rhinos and dinosaurs with the beast master racial feat for half orcs)

Wow. So some of you are basically saying that I can't get a bear because my class doesn't allow it. What do I have access to? What I would also enjoy would be Roc (those giant birds of prey are amazing in my opinion).

But I don't understand why I can't have a bear? Here are the only clue that I have for my available mount/AC:

Animal Ally:
You gain an animal companion as if you were a druid of your character level –3 from the following list: badger, bird, camel, cat (small), dire rat, dog, horse, pony, snake (viper), or wolf. If you later gain an animal companion through another source (such as the Animal domain, divine bond, hunter's bond, mount, or nature bond class features), the effective druid level granted by this feat stacks with that granted by other sources.

Divine Bond:
The second type of bond allows a paladin to gain the service of an unusually intelligent, strong, and loyal steed to serve her in her crusade against evil. This mount is usually a heavy horse (for a Medium paladin) or a pony (for a Small paladin), although more exotic mounts, such as a boar, camel, or dog are also suitable. This mount functions as a druid's animal companion, using the paladin's level as her effective druid level. Bonded mounts have an Intelligence of at least 6.

If I'm not mistaken, the Divine Bond seems very unprecise about "exotic mount" but Animal Ally seems pretty clear. Also I don't think Animal ally gets priority over Divine Bond because it precisely says: "If you later gain an animal companion through another source (such as the Animal domain, divine bond, [etc].". Here a my new questions:

1) Does animal ally gets priority over Divine Bond in the options I have for animals?
2) If no, what animal have I access to since Divine Bond is very unclear?
3) Is there any way for me to get a Roc in a legit way (Pathfinder wise)?

[Chess Pwn]

For PFS it's precise with saying boar, camel or dog. Those are your exotic mounts. If it's a home game, ask your GM, a bear isn't that crazy of a companion.

Stacking animal companion levels normally only stack if it's one of the listed animals. Meaning it would only stack for: camel, dog, horse, and pony. All the other animals wouldn't stack.

For a Roc you need a driud companion, so Wild Child Brawler, Mad Dog barbarian, sylvan sorcerer, druid, animal domain, hunter, sacred huntsmaster inquisitor, etc.

[lemeres]

Oh- this is something you have been missing- You cannot get an animal companion from divine bond, and gain the animal ally feat at the same time.

One of the prerequisites for animal ally is that you do not have an animal companion or mount.

So if you have divine bond with an animal, then it takes precedence.

I would aim for bribing the GM more better selection honestly (bears are honestly not that strong a choice; similar to horses actually). As I said, the divine bond feature gives you a 6 int creature you can pal around with. It also eventually becomes a celestial version at level 11.

[DocShock]

Imbicatus wrote:

I have seen Nagaji paladins with a mount that was smarter than they were.

I had a Suli character built around this. He let his horse make all the decisions since the horse was the brains of the operation.

[Chengar Qordath]

I'm going to stick with suggesting Beast Rider or Monstrous Mount as the solution. Admittedly no bears or rocs on the list, but there are several dinosaurs in Beast Rider, and the griffon and hippogriff make for very nice mounts.

[jacot]

lemeres wrote:

Oh- this is something you have been missing- You cannot get an animal companion from divine bond, and gain the animal ally feat at the same time.

One of the prerequisites for animal ally is that you do not have an animal companion or mount.

So if you have divine bond with an animal, then it takes precedence.

I would aim for bribing the GM more better selection honestly (bears are honestly not that strong a choice; similar to horses actually). As I said, the divine bond feature gives you a 6 int creature you can pal around with. It also eventually becomes a celestial version at level 11.

And it doesn't help that a bear starts off as a small creature then becomes medium at lvl 4 so unless you area halfling or a gnome it couldn't be a mount anyway

[lemeres]

jacot wrote:

lemeres wrote:

Oh- this is something you have been missing- You cannot get an animal companion from divine bond, and gain the animal ally feat at the same time.

One of the prerequisites for animal ally is that you do not have an animal companion or mount.

So if you have divine bond with an animal, then it takes precedence.

I would aim for bribing the GM more better selection honestly (bears are honestly not that strong a choice; similar to horses actually). As I said, the divine bond feature gives you a 6 int creature you can pal around with. It also eventually becomes a celestial version at level 11.

And it doesn't help that a bear starts off as a small creature then becomes medium at lvl 4 so unless you area halfling or a gnome it couldn't be a mount anyway

yeah...that is one of the advantages of beast rider cavaliers- they get the option to just scale up the small ones like that up to large.

[jacot]

lemeres wrote:

jacot wrote:

lemeres wrote:

Oh- this is something you have been missing- You cannot get an animal companion from divine bond, and gain the animal ally feat at the same time.

One of the prerequisites for animal ally is that you do not have an animal companion or mount.

So if you have divine bond with an animal, then it takes precedence.

I would aim for bribing the GM more better selection honestly (bears are honestly not that strong a choice; similar to horses actually). As I said, the divine bond feature gives you a 6 int creature you can pal around with. It also eventually becomes a celestial version at level 11.

And it doesn't help that a bear starts off as a small creature then becomes medium at lvl 4 so unless you area halfling or a gnome it couldn't be a mount anyway

yeah...that is one of the advantages of beast rider cavaliers- they get the option to just scale up the small ones like that up to large.

Oh really ill have to look that up then where can I find it

[lemeres]

This whole sentence is a link for the Beast Rider archetype. (EDIT: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/cavalier/archetypes/paizo---ca valier-archetypes/beast-rider if the link is acting funny REEDIT:..even cutting and pasting is funny, adding a space in my actual post. Am I doing something wrong with all this?)

For the first 3 levels, you have to work with normal horse-ish options. At level 4, you get a small but rather nice selection of animal companions to choose from to serve as mounts (it includes dinosaurs, including ones that break later rules of the archetype, like T-rexes).

At level 7, you can pick most animal companions who are based off of BIG creatures from the bestiary (bears are used as an example in the archetype, since grizzlies are large sized normally). If it only gets to medium size through being an animal companion, then it can be increased to large with a modest boost to stat to go with the change. It has to be nonflying and 4 legged though (they did't want you to get too crazy for trading away 1 ability and heavy armor proficiency).