Everyone remotely adault has gone through at least one experience that has had some traumatic effect on them. Heck if I take myself as an example then theres trauma all the way back to 7 years old or so that I remember of. Experiencing trauma is tough, but to live life you need to accept and embrace it.
It's impossible for an unrelated writer to know and predict the trauma of everyone who is going to take part in the material he writes.
I for example get extremely emotional at the sound of a heart monitor slowly zoning out to a monotone, I stiffen and shake just writing this, BUT, I am an adult, my experience is in no way unique, it is normal, and I have no right to become upset everytime the same sound is featured (oh so innumerable times) on television or in a movie. It is the writer's right to write the story they intended.
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Also, on the note of children in roleplaying, there is no such thing as "child appropriate" in pathfinder, the game is about killing, killing monsters, other people. Sometimes even innocents. Other times you come upon the scenes of innocents being slaughtered. At all this there is not so much as a hiccup from any of us players with decades of experience because we are so used to it. We allow our children the right to pick up an imaginary sword and slaughter imaginary people, it is because it is all imaginary that we allow it! It is no less their right to experience the good and the bad equally. If there should be any "age appropriate XX" stamp on a roleplaying book, it should be: "Rated T for teens." or "12" Because that is the general age limit for content that contains themes of violent nature in general.
Edited: A rude comment up front doesnt give incentive to read my post, i apologize.
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Isnt this somethign that should be rolled into a bundle with the words "Suck it up" taped to the knot?
No, because it can be a physical, biological reaction that you have no more control over than yanking your hand away from a scalding hot stove or gasping for breath when plunged into ice water.
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Which is fine BNW, because when we burn our hand with the hot water we get over it and move on, if we cant move on then maybe cooking with hot water just isnt for u.
Maybe some people have to accept that a game of Uno is more their speed and this gsme just isnt for them. You can festoon the covers with all the trigger warnings you like but as we have seen in thread after thread about interpersonal issues at the table - this game involves people, often complete strangers...who can and will say all sorts of strange and unusual things and are probably the bigger issue.
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Wow, no. While I don't think there's a feasible way to provide a content warning system, and I do think it's the responsibility of the GM to know the scenario ahead of time, judge its appropriateness for their particular group of players, and be aware of their players' reactions to tone things down or leave them out if someone's getting upset, "if you have past trauma and are still triggered by it, maybe RPGs aren't for you, weakling -- stick to Uno" is not an attitude appropriate to either our organized play program or our boards.
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The addition of the word 'weakling' was certainly a decision you made in order to consolidate a position, but so be it.
I was talking about the need to have control over your environment (not much chance of a trigger clicking there) as opposed to having a false sense of security driven by a bunch of warning labels that provide a false sense of security, because your fellow players (who are complete strangers) do not come with trigger warnings.
What we have seen, especially in the gender threads, is that most of the complaints at the table do not come from the products and what is written in them, the source of the problems tend to stem from fellow players.
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Aside from people embellishing Zarta's actions or her promises to Chelish, now Dark Archive players, this one should be a nonstarter. I believe it has been said in the past that Paizo development won't publish scenarios with this theme, similar to how they won't publish ones related to child abuse.Alcohol.
Drugs.
Sexual Violence.
Sexuality.
Suicide.That seems like a reasonable list of things to warn parents and sensitive players about.
Won't do child abuse?
How about kidnapping two kids, holding them in a demon haunted manor, torturing their parents to death, posing their grisly corpses, and then putting the kids to bed beside them? Or how about a list of psychopaths that strongly implies you are locked in said mansion with a child killer and a necrophile? Does "Day of the Demon" ring any bells?
So, no, those assurances by Paizo ring a bit hollow... also, those assurances themselves tend to suggest that Paizo considers some material too much to EVER subject some players to, let alone without a warning. It is tacit admission that some material may be too much for some.
That is NOT to say I am advocating strong stories go untold... I am just saying that some warnings are appropriate.
Also, I believe that "triggers" and "PTSD" implies we are talking about a person suffering from a diagnosable psychopathology. That is a handicap, just as surely as any physical one, and the flippant disregard and disrespect that some have shown to said disabled persons is ... troubling to say the least. Personally, kicking someone in their damage and then insulting them to boot seems a bit twisted.
If some are against such warning labels, are they SERIOUSLY suggesting that triggering a PTSD episode or the reliving of a depressive trauma is just the cost of doing business in our little gaming society? Really?
I'd hate to see what they are willing to do to others for something more serious than a game...
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That is NOT to say I am advocating strong stories go untold... I am just saying that some warnings are appropriate.
Hmm, you raise some good points - maybe a 'rating system'? Not content/warnings, as often that can also be a huge spoiler, but perhaps an age guide sticker/recommended for'x+'?
In fairness you make that sound more like an 18+, and frankly, as good as that scenario was it probably wasn't all ages.
I think anything with the word 'Pett' or 'Logue' on it is fair warning though that the filling is probably going to be hot :)
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Hmm, you raise some good points - maybe a 'rating system'? Not content/warnings, as often that can also be a huge spoiler, but perhaps an age guide sticker/recommended for'x+'?
In fairness you make that sound more like an 18+, and frankly, as good as that scenario was it probably wasn't all ages.
I think anything with the word 'Pett' or 'Logue' on it is fair warning though that the filling is probably going to be hot :)
Well, here I think we have mostly been concerned with people of any age being "set off" by something VERY evocative of known types of traumatic events...
Age ratings are a different can of worms. However, there are MANY publically used scales (like movie ratings) that would render those things simultaneously less subjective AND less "spoilery", since a generic rating does not reference specific content.
So that one is easier. It is the "trauma coding" that I think is more important and (unfortunately) trickier.
I should note that I have more experience with the subject that any sane person would prefer. I have dealt with people with PTSD, depression, and suicidal ideation both in the Army, VA, and VFW. They are more likely to be triggered by things more strongly reminiscent of the trauma, NOT by mere mention of a type of trauma. They have generally all had to use the word in settings as prosaic as the administrative aspects of their treatment. BUT, role playing it out or roleplaying exposure to it all over again is entirely different.
So, what I am saying is, "Sterile, abstract warnings ahead of time are far safer then blindsiding them with suddenly roleplaying it."
Anyhow, just my two cents.
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So... I made this. It's pretty make-shift at the moment and I've only populated it with stuff I've run/played (and with a semi-fuzzy memory), but anyone can view and edit. Individuals who are concerned about a particular trigger going off unexpectedly can simply check the list in advance, GMs can consider their audience before choosing a scenario, and I really don't think that there's any story-spoiling information on there.
I'd like to see whether it works as a tool before I build something more permanent/official-looking, so please:
- Populate the sheet!
- Add categories as needed
- Give thoughts on efficacy/usefulness/problems/etc.
Hmm, you raise some good points - maybe a 'rating system'? Not content/warnings, as often that can also be a huge spoiler, but perhaps an age guide sticker/recommended for'x+'?
The problem with age stickers and the MPAA rating system is a simple age or G/PG/etc warning comes with no context and so isn't really very helpful. That's why things are a little better when the MPAA the ESRB ratings come with content flags. Fantasy Violence you can assume for most but Sexual Content, Blood and Gore, Intense Violence, Suggestive Themes, and others that could be created like Torture References, Slavery References, or Horror Themes could be helpful and not spoil the scenario.
RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
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Aside from people embellishing Zarta's actions or her promises to Chelish, now Dark Archive players, this one should be a nonstarter. I believe it has been said in the past that Paizo development won't publish scenarios with this theme, similar to how they won't publish ones related to child abuse.Alcohol.
Drugs.
Sexual Violence.
Sexuality.
Suicide.That seems like a reasonable list of things to warn parents and sensitive players about.
Won't do child abuse?
How about kidnapping two kids, holding them in a demon haunted manor, torturing their parents to death, posing their grisly corpses, and then putting the kids to bed beside them? Or how about a list of psychopaths that strongly implies you are locked in said mansion with a child killer and a necrophile? Does "Day of the Demon" ring any bells?
That's a bit of a difference from what you get from your day to day episode of Law and Order: SVU. It's also a bit different from what comes to mind when I think about "child abuse." That situation was certainly terrible for the children, but it was also terrible for the parents. It was not as if the children were singled out. I'd say it was more of a general "person abuse" that happened there.
Also, you may want to consider spoilers in future posts with such detail regarding a scenario.
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I think some people underestimate the number of people who got a sheltered/clostered life, got overprotected, and the like; those tend to be more fragile.
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I think some people underestimate the number of people who got a sheltered/clostered life, got overprotected, and the like; those tend to be more fragile.
And not to sound callous, but that is not the problem of those who did not. Once again we come to individual responsibility If someone fears going into a situation they may be unable to handle, they should do prior research. If someone finds themselves in a situation that makes them uncomfortable they should excuse themselves from said situation or perhaps pull the GM aside and explain the issue.
But the impetus is on the individual to manage their condition, not on the entirety of the Paizo/PFS to adjust to them. Believe it or not many of the things that could be a trigger for someone are actually staples of the genre. The sense of dread or horror or vile tragedy serve as both integral setting and heroic motivation. And many others just like the idea of being able to let loose and massacre things in a safe environment, it can be empowering or stress relieving, just like video games.
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*ahem*
This sounds harsh, but it is meant to be bluntly honest and not callous. I do not intend to insult any specific person on this thread, merely to put in my blunt view on the items being discussed.
Here goes:
I think there should be an age limit to PFS play, I think I don't want kids at any PFS table I play at, if you bring your kids to play I will politely move to another table. Find a babysitter. If you can't do that or have trouble doing that, I think a quiet conversation with the DM at the start of play where you ask them "Hey, are there titties in this?" is reasonable only to the point that when the DM gets to the part with the hanging, smelly corpses, he'll tell you to send your kids out of the room so I can get to play the scenario as written.
I think that trigger warnings are an invention of the vast foolishness of the internet. I think they have been abused since they were invented and that the very people who frigging invented them now agree that they have been hijacked by people with a poor understanding of the science of psychological trauma. This sounds harsh but: if the simple act of a third party describing a fictional event is too much to handle, I definitely believe that you should not be at the gaming table you should be at home with family and friends and getting the help you need. Dead serious on that. (Yes, I am aware I put what amounts to a limp trigger warning at the start of this post, do as I say and not as I do)
Finally, this whole thread is nonsense. Exhibit A, is that the OP of this thread and even a Paizo rep misused the very concept of "triggers" by using it to describe "inappropriate content for children" instead of "possible triggers for people who suffered sexual trauma", which is what a "Trigger Warning" is for. If we can't even remember what a trigger warning is for, we do not require them in our gaming organization. Period.
Paizo needs to only consider an adult content warning for certain stuff or restrict anyone under the age of 15 in PFS to begin with. I am very in favor of that second one. Aside from that, Paizo, I love the new factions...keep it going.
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Also, I believe that "triggers" and "PTSD" implies we are talking about a person suffering from a diagnosable psychopathology. That is a handicap, just as surely as any physical one,
Correct. But while you make every reasonable accommodation to that some things just aren't doable. Just like you can't make Mount McKinley national park accessible to me and my busted foot without installing a monorail and ruining its natural beauty you can't make pathfinder accessible to someone that can't stand fantasy violence and battle scenes without effectively turning it into something its not.
If you have a more specific problem there are ways you can look ahead. You can ask the DM, you can read the scenario blurb, you can go to the product discussion page and ask "are there any spiders in this one?", you can even download the scenario and read it ahead of time. Yes, that is more work on someone, but each individual is the only person that CAN make that call for themselves.
and the flippant disregard and disrespect that some have shown to said disabled persons is ... troubling to say the least. Personally, kicking someone in their damage and then insulting them to boot seems a bit twisted.
Which brings us to the next variable inherent in pfs: the players. Not only are the people and DMs not (necessarily) professional psychiatrists trained to pick up on and respond to human behavior and distress but we have a not entirely undeserved reputation for a lack of social skills. While flipping back and forth through the scenario, trying to remember where the faction mission is, adjudicating the stealth rules and quoting monty python loud enough to be heard over the next table it can be pretty easy to miss someone going white in the face with a thousand yard stare.
You are going into amateur semi improvisational theater with a bunch of random nuts. Its turbulent, chaotic, and unpredictable. There's not a lot of negotiation on those points, they're inherent to pfs. Asking someone to adapt to the system by talking to the dm or checking a web page they can google in 15 seconds is a more than reasonable accommodation on their part to everyone else.
I think some people underestimate the number of people who got a sheltered/clostered life, got overprotected, and the like; those tend to be more fragile.And not to sound callous, but that is not the problem of those who did not. Once again we come to individual responsibility If someone fears going into a situation they may be unable to handle, they should do prior research. If someone finds themselves in a situation that makes them uncomfortable they should excuse themselves from said situation or perhaps pull the GM aside and explain the issue.
But the impetus is on the individual to manage their condition, not on the entirety of the Paizo/PFS to adjust to them. Believe it or not many of the things that could be a trigger for someone are actually staples of the genre. The sense of dread or horror or vile tragedy serve as both integral setting and heroic motivation. And many others just like the idea of being able to let loose and massacre things in a safe environment, it can be empowering or stress relieving, just like video games.
Good job at missing a point; some people might not realize they have problem with X, Y or Z because of a lack of exposure to those, or in some cases, being misinformed about those.
Also, the "everyone get over their trauma" points are far from accurate.
Good job at missing a point; some people might not realize they have problem with X, Y or Z because of a lack of exposure to those, or in some cases, being misinformed about those.I think some people underestimate the number of people who got a sheltered/clostered life, got overprotected, and the like; those tend to be more fragile.And not to sound callous, but that is not the problem of those who did not. Once again we come to individual responsibility If someone fears going into a situation they may be unable to handle, they should do prior research. If someone finds themselves in a situation that makes them uncomfortable they should excuse themselves from said situation or perhaps pull the GM aside and explain the issue.
But the impetus is on the individual to manage their condition, not on the entirety of the Paizo/PFS to adjust to them. Believe it or not many of the things that could be a trigger for someone are actually staples of the genre. The sense of dread or horror or vile tragedy serve as both integral setting and heroic motivation. And many others just like the idea of being able to let loose and massacre things in a safe environment, it can be empowering or stress relieving, just like video games.
For adults with actual triggers, it's very rarely something they have no awareness of problems with and it's almost certainly not a matter having been too sheltered. cloistered, overprotected or the like. It's a matter of specific past trauma.
Sure, some people are going to be uncomfortable with some themes. For adults, that's not what we're talking about. Uncomfortable, we can deal with.
*sigh* I will try to use a different example: take a 'child' raised in a very sterelized environment, now give that 'child' a common cold, to the 'child', said cold will feel like something worst.
Sometimes it can happen because of a copping mechanism (as these can be weird). In others, the person would just need to be warned beforehand (mental preparation).
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IMO, a ratings system for adventures is a fantastic idea. All kinds of categories could be included, so any person could find potentially anything they find offensive/unwanted, and completely avoided. This is definitely something that should be done...by the player community, not by Paizo.
To the OP, my best suggestions (other than doing exactly what you did) is by going to the messageboards and asking people which ones you should avoid if you dont want to see/dont want your kids to see X kind of thing happening. I attempted to start that kind of list in the 2nd response to this long thread, but since then this has spiraled largely out of control.
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IMO, a ratings system for adventures is a fantastic idea. All kinds of categories could be included, so any person could find potentially anything they find offensive/unwanted, and completely avoided. This is definitely something that should be done...by the player community, not by Paizo.
That's exactly what I'm trying to do HERE! Please add to it and let me know what you think could be improved!
RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 32
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So... I made this. It's pretty make-shift at the moment and I've only populated it with stuff I've run/played (and with a semi-fuzzy memory), but anyone can view and edit. Individuals who are concerned about a particular trigger going off unexpectedly can simply check the list in advance, GMs can consider their audience before choosing a scenario, and I really don't think that there's any story-spoiling information on there.
I'd like to see whether it works as a tool before I build something more permanent/official-looking, so please:
- Populate the sheet!
- Add categories as needed
- Give thoughts on efficacy/usefulness/problems/etc.
Dammit, MCM (if I may abbreviate)! I was planning on setting up something like this!
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Dammit, MCM (if I may abbreviate)! I was planning on setting up something like this!So... I made this. It's pretty make-shift at the moment and I've only populated it with stuff I've run/played (and with a semi-fuzzy memory), but anyone can view and edit. Individuals who are concerned about a particular trigger going off unexpectedly can simply check the list in advance, GMs can consider their audience before choosing a scenario, and I really don't think that there's any story-spoiling information on there.
I'd like to see whether it works as a tool before I build something more permanent/official-looking, so please:
- Populate the sheet!
- Add categories as needed
- Give thoughts on efficacy/usefulness/problems/etc.
I suggested something similar to this, but in the form of a forum that Paizo could add to the PFS area as a community run resource similar to the GM forums. This way people could give their opinions and experience in ways that any generic rating system could never match.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Indiana—Martinsville
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*ahem*
This sounds harsh, but it is meant to be bluntly honest and not callous. I do not intend to insult any specific person on this thread, merely to put in my blunt view on the items being discussed.
Here goes:
I think there should be an age limit to PFS play, I think I don't want kids at any PFS table I play at
I am sorry, but some Kids are better and more astute players than some grown ups. Kids grow up fast, sheltering them only leads to a bigger shock when they see the real world.
Perhaps some things can be toned down by the GM, a particular changed slightly to infer a different outlook, or a situation within a kitchen hand waved to put things on a more PG slant. Kids, though, are more resilient and knowledgeable about things than what we, as parents and "grown ups" would like them to be. Even if we didn't have TV/Movies/Internets or what not, they tend to pick things up and a few things within a Role Playing game isn't gonna be "THE END OF THE WORLD!!!!"
Yeah, Zarta was always pushing at that line. Miss Feathers could be tricky to explain. The Pickled Imp, well, we don't talk about the Pickled Imp...
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...I do think it's the responsibility of the GM to ..., judge its appropriateness for their particular group of players, and be aware of their players' reactions to tone things down or leave them out if someone's getting upset.
Most probably that´s not always possible for a PFS GM, especially when meeting new people or people you don´t GM for very often. Watching reactions and toning down is possible though, difficult at times, because people need some willingness to communicate. If someone is not giving any signs of discomfort or reactions before things blow up, GM´s cannot be faulted in my opinion.
I recently had to deal with some people who are swimming on that wave of "being introvert is so cool and all the rest are so insensitive", what pretty much sucks. There are no people who can read others minds and it´s difficult for everyone.Communication is key and always wins, but it needs to be a two way street, aknowledging that everyone is human and fallible.
As a GM, just tread careful with people you don´t know and clear some things like the level of graphic violence etc beforehand.
If you´re a player and have some problems, even if it´s hard, at least try to give some hints. Telling that you´re a veteran and experienced some hard battles or a person saying it experienced unwanted attention before goes a long way in making others a bit more attentive without telling personal things.
As for the rating system, Paizo has a very good comment function and review function. Instead of complaints about what you think doesn´t fit your fantasy thematically, something like this could be mentioned there.
And again, that's not what anyone else is talking about.
I suppose what you're suggesting is a theoretically possible source of complaints, but it's not one that's being made here.
We have been mixing two conversations - child-friendly and adult triggers, but neither of them have anything to do with overly sheltered people.
Think of it as Nature vs Nurture then, the way someone is raised have some impacts on how someone see things; 'education' that is in the opposite dirrection of one nature might have a sling shot effect, etc...
Being able to observe people reaction around you can be useful as well, some people out of fear or pride (or both) won't talk about their dislikes, trauma, phobia, etc, so being able to tell you are making someone inconfortable is useful.
*ahem*
This sounds harsh, but it is meant to be bluntly honest and not callous. I do not intend to insult any specific person on this thread, merely to put in my blunt view on the items being discussed.
Here goes:
I think there should be an age limit to PFS play, I think I don't want kids at any PFS table I play at
I am sorry, but some Kids are better and more astute players than some grown ups. Kids grow up fast, sheltering them only leads to a bigger shock when they see the real world.
Perhaps some things can be toned down by the GM, a particular changed slightly to infer a different outlook, or a situation within a kitchen hand waved to put things on a more PG slant. Kids, though, are more resilient and knowledgeable about things than what we, as parents and "grown ups" would like them to be. Even if we didn't have TV/Movies/Internets or what not, they tend to pick things up and a few things within a Role Playing game isn't gonna be "THE END OF THE WORLD!!!!"
That, with everything else, there is a lot of case by case basis. on the other hand, PFS as a whole has trouble with case by case basis things due to how it works.
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Why does everyone seem to think this means the end of the world? This was a request from a GM, who had an actual situation and not some slippery slope theoretical construct, and they were asking for guidance.
A community-driven list like MCM started is a tool for those who want to use it, and for those that don't: it's like it doesn't even exist. As a player, if I knew I could pre-screen my scenarios to avoid a situation I was uncomfortable with - well, that saves everyone some hassle, doesn't it? If, as a GM, I know I could check to see if this scenario would bother my friend who has a strong phobia, then great.
If you don't think this is important, you're entitled to think that way. When it happens at your table, perhaps you'll change your mind. Until then, please don't stomp all over the people trying to solve an actual problem for themselves and their gaming communities.
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