straight moms optimal feat order

[shroudb]

so, long story short, i'm trying to build a straight MoMS based on counterattacking.

dex/wis based
ultimately will have an agile fortuitous aomf.

going for panther/crane/snake chain.

so at lvl 9-10 he should be able to:

swift action activate all 3 styles
free action pick up a target for crane style's +2 to ac
move action to move towards target, provoking with his movement

provoking will trigger retaliatory strike
if this hits opponent at -2 att -2 damage, and then his attack will resolve
if his attack misses snake fang activates for AoO
immediate action if AoO hits for another AoO
fortuitous activates for AoO
crane riposte activates for AoO
standard action make an attack.
end round

that should be:
1 retaliatory strike (free)
4 AoO (one of them at -5)
1 attack (at full bab)

ac would be at 10+dex+wis+4 (fighting defensivly) +2 (crane wing) +4 (mage armor)+1 natural (mountain) +2 shield (mountain, assuming second round and over)(+1dodge) or
23(24)+dex+wis+equip
attack would be at -1 due to fighting defensively

the feats i need to make this work are:
combat refl
panther 1 (combat ref)
panther 2 (combat ref panther 1)
panther 3 (combat ref panther 2)
crane 1 (dodge, monk 1)
crane 2 (dodge, monk 5, crane 1)
crane 3 (dodge, crane 2, monk 7)
snake 1 (monk 3)
snake 3 (snake 1, bonus)
dodge (not really necessary depending if i wait till lvl10 to pick that up with the last bonus feat)

in what order would you pick those?
from a quick galnce:
i can take them somewhat like this:
1h refl
1 panther 1
1m crane 1
2m crane 2
3 snake 1
5 panther 2
6m snake 3
7 panther 3
9 free
10m crane 3

or this:

1h dodge
1 crane
1m crane 2
2m crane 3
3 combat ref
5 snake 1
6m snake 3
7 panther 1
9 panther 2
10m panther 3

or anyways really...

i suck at his, so please help me^^
also, what equip (apart from the obvious stat boosters/ac/resistance, monks robes, agile fortuitous aomf) would be ideal or cool?

[LoneKnave]

I think you very rarely want to use all three of your styles at once. Staying MoMS otherwise has very little benefit, once you pick up the Combat Style Master feat. For this reason, I'd suggest only taking 2 levels of MoMS and taking the rest of your levels in some other monk-like class, such as Sacred Fist Warpriest or Brawler (either the hybrid or the archetype).

[shroudb]

Why would I rarely want to use all 3?

One gives me aoo every time someone misses
The other gives me ac and aoo the first time someone misses
The third gives me free attack when I provoke and penalty to who I'm fighting

[LoneKnave]

Basically Crane style is the bottleneck:
-You can only fight defensively if you make a full attack (so you can't move for panther to be useful).
-You can only make the Riposte AoO while using full defense, and no other AoOs (so you don't need Snake Style since you can't use its AoO).

If you find a method to full attack after movement, you could still have Panther up during the movement, then use a free action to switch it to Crane so you get the boost for fighting defensively, once you get combat style master.

[Durngrun Stonebreaker]

You can fight defensively as a standard action.

[LoneKnave]

Point still stands tho. You are not fighting defensively until you have attacked (or started a total defense). You can have Panther up while moving and then switch to Crane when attacking for the defense boost.

You'd only need all 3 is if you started next to an enemy attacked, and then danced around him... buuuut, thing is, once you get the bonuses from crane style, I'm pretty sure they persist until the beginning of your next round.

[shroudb]

Bonuses from fighting defensible persist rill the start of your next round.

And its a +6 to ac +1 free attack.
The +6 to ac is what helps trigger your snake sidewind which can trigger from all missed attacks vs you

If you don't have crane up while moving then you won't have the +6 on the ac when you provoke. And if that attack lands, you won't be making aoo,s

[Chubby1968]

"straight moms optimal feat order"

I giggled. :]

[shroudb]

... Stupid me forgot finesse in either build.

So, in order to have everything by lvl10 I need to circumvent dodge feat.
So I need all 3 crane feats through bonus monk feats.
The only reasonable way for this, imo, is
1: finesse, combat ref, crane1(bonus)
2: crane2(bonus), toughness
3: panther1
5: snake1
6: snake3(bonus)
7: panther2
9: panther3
10: crane3(bonus)

The only reasonable way to do something similar with SF is, again imo, going str based, but that would hurt the stat array and mainly ac by a lot:

1: dodge/combat ref, pummeling1
2moms: pummeling charge
3moms: snake style, snake fang (bonus), toughness
5: combat reflexes/dodge
7: crane1
8(sf 6): crane2, combat style master
9: crane3

Second problem with that is it basically needs at least lvl8 to work due to style swapping (pummeling+crane when attacking, crane+snake at end of round)

[Marc Radle]

What is a moms?

[LoneKnave]

shroudb wrote:

Bonuses from fighting defensible persist rill the start of your next round.

And its a +6 to ac +1 free attack.
The +6 to ac is what helps trigger your snake sidewind which can trigger from all missed attacks vs you

If you don't have crane up while moving then you won't have the +6 on the ac when you provoke. And if that attack lands, you won't be making aoo,s

Exactly! Which is why I'm saying you don't need 8 levels from MoMS to get the full benefit.

While you are attacking, you are not using any of your other styles, and while you are getting attacked (because you moved), you are not actually using Crane Style; you already got crane style's benefit when you chose to fight defensively.

[Dracoknight]

Marc Radle wrote:

What is a moms?

Master of many styles i recon

[shroudb]

LoneKnave wrote:

shroudb wrote:

Bonuses from fighting defensible persist rill the start of your next round.

And its a +6 to ac +1 free attack.
The +6 to ac is what helps trigger your snake sidewind which can trigger from all missed attacks vs you

If you don't have crane up while moving then you won't have the +6 on the ac when you provoke. And if that attack lands, you won't be making aoo,s

Exactly! Which is why I'm saying you don't need 8 levels from MoMS to get the full benefit.

While you are attacking, you are not using any of your other styles, and while you are getting attacked (because you moved), you are not actually using Crane Style; you already got crane style's benefit when you chose to fight defensively.

The whole point of the build is counter attacking.

So, when you move, you provoke
You get a free attack
And if enemy's attack miss
Then you get up to 4aoo

If you don't have crane up then instead of +6ac -1attack, you have +3ac -4 attack for the opponents aoo AND your own 3 aoo vs him AND you only do 3 aoo instead of 4

[LoneKnave]

But you get the benefit from crane when you attack, not when you move (which is when you provoke). You only need Crane Style running when you make an attack, and then the bonuses last until your defensive fighting does.

[shroudb]

The bonus of defensive fighting is:
-4 +3
Crane gives you
+1 dodge when you are fighting def
+2 dodge vs 1 opponent
1 counter aoo
-1 instead of -4 attack
WHILE style is up

So optimally, you attack to activate defensive
And then you move, while keeping crane up to keep the bonuses