I think the Eldritch Scion in the ACG is a mess. It messes up a lot for the Magus in exchange for downgrading the casting. If you disagree, good! I look forward to discussing that in some other topic. If you agree, I have a proposed fix for you right here, that is up for discussion.
Goals:
-Keep as much intact from the Magus as possible
-Keep other archetypes as open as possible (Things like Elemental Knight and Kapenia Dancer scream for compatibility)
-Get as much from the bloodline/bloodrage mechanics as possible
-Make an effort at compensating for the loss of prepared casting
And with that, without further ado
Eldritch Scion
Skills:
An Eldritch Scion receives 4 skill points/level instead of the usual 2.
Straightforward enough; the loss of INT based casting means that your Magus went from 2+4-6 skill points to 2+1(-1?). This dampens the blow a bit, but the Eldritch scion still won't skillmonkey it up; although now he at least has the skill points for UMD and some other CHA skills at least.
Spell Casting:
An eldritch scion casts arcane spells drawn from the magus spell list. He can cast any spell he knows without preparing it ahead of time. To learn or cast a spell, an eldritch scion must have a Charisma score equal to at least 10 + the spell's level. The DC for a saving throw against an eldritch scion's spell is 10 + the spell's level + the eldritch scion's Charisma modifier. An eldritch scion can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. His base daily spell allotment is the same as a bard of the same level. In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Charisma score.
An eldritch scion's selection of spells is limited. He has the same number of spells known as a bard of the same level, and can choose new spells to replace old ones at 5th level and every 3 class levels after that, just as a bard does. See the bard for more information on swapping spells known.
If the Eldritch Scion would use an ability to regain a used spell slot, instead he gains another spell of the level he would have regained (up to the maximum number of slots he has of that spell level for the day).
If an ability would let an Eldritch Scion treat a spell as if it was in his spell book for the purpose of preparing it, he can cast that spell using his spell slots as if he knew it until the next time he rests.
This ability modifies the Magus's spell casting.
Okay, we are being a bit tricky here. The idea behind the second half of this (as the first half is just copied straight from the class in the ACG), is that by putting these "modifiers" here, I won't need to replace Knowledge Pool and Spell Recall, so they are free to be replaced by archetypes.
Bloodline:
At 1st level, the Eldritch Scion selects a bloodline. He gains the sorcerer's bloodline arcana. An Eldritch Scion's levels count as both Sorerer and Bloodrager levels for the purpose of bloodlines, but he does not gain any powers automatically. Instead, whenever a an Eldritch Scion would receive a Magus Arcana, he may instead decide to gain a bloodline power from either the Sorcerer or the Bloodrager bloodline he has. He has to be at least the same level as the level the orignal class receives the Bloodline power.
For example, a 3rd level Eldritch Scion could not replace his Magus Arcana with a 4th level Bloodrager Blooldline Power, but a 5th level taking Extra Arcana could.
If an eldritch scion takes levels in another class that grant a bloodline, the bloodlines must be the same type, even if that means that the bloodline of one of the classes must change. Subject to GM discretion, an eldritch scion can change his former bloodline to make them conform.
An Eldritch Scion can not take the Eldritch Heritage and Raging Blood feats.
This lets you pick and choose which powers you want; if you want to be more cast-y you may prefer the sorcerer bloodline powers. The feat restrictions are there because I honestly didn't want to think about how that'd work.
Bloodrage:
An Eldritch Scion can bloodrage like a Bloodrager of his level. He can use any Bloodrager Bloodline powers he has during this bloodrage like a Bloodrager of his level.
Additionally, any magus's class feature or spell from the magus spell list that normally uses a calculation based on Intelligence is instead based on Charisma for an eldritch scion. For example, an eldritch scion with the arcane accuracy magus arcana grants himself an insight bonus on attacks equal to his Charisma bonus, not his Intelligence bonus. This has no effect on the eldritch scion's skills or skill points.
Furthermore, an Eldritch Scion can use the energies of his Bloodrage to fuel his powers. Instead of spending Arcane Pool Points, he may spend 2 rounds of bloodrage for each point it'd have taken to activate an ability. Any effect that would cause an Eldritch Scion to regain Pool Points lets him regain twice as many Bloodrage Rounds instead (up to the maximum number of rounds he has for the day).
This ability replaces Arcane Pool.
Just en-bloc replacing Arcane pool with bloodrage. Radical, but means that the action economy is improved in exchange for the flexibility and the waaay better pool point economy of the standard arcane pool.
Musings: Bloodrager pool is CON based. Should it change to CHA, or shifting focus from the stat/making the class a bit more MAD (as if not everyone wanted CON) is a good thing? There's no improvement to this bloodrage, should it turn into +6/6 at 11 and then +8/8 at 20?
Spell Combat:
An Eldritch Scion may only use Spell Combat while in Bloodrage. However, due to the deeper connection with eldritch energies while in this state, he doesn't need to keep a hand empty and not attack while using this ability. This means he can make a full attack (and deliver a spellstrike) with a two handed weapon, or two weapons held in his hands, or using natural weapons/unarmed strike associated with both of his hands.
This modifies spell combat
This further limits the flexibility of the Eldritch Scion's bloodrage, but gives a nice little bump in exchange. The ability to use claws is the kicker here, as many bloodlines grant claws, and I feel like it's a waste if you need to ignore them because Spellcombat, your main class feature does. This probably may be still too strong... but then again, you give up your main damage increasing option, metamagic'd shocking grasp, so this could compensate for it. Maybe make it into an Arcana? But eldritch scions are already quite arcana starved...
^While I disagree that spontaneous casting is necessarily weaker than prepared casting (each has its own strong points, and only the Arcanist combines most of both, your proposed fix is interesting for the attempt to retain broad archetype compatibility by retaining standard Magus class features that spontaneous casting would normally render redundant, but then finding ways to make them useful, so I am marking this thread for interest. However, I don't understand how this is supposed to work for the following: "If the Eldritch Scion would use an ability to regain a used spell slot, instead he gains another spell of the level he would have regained (up to the maximum number of slots he has of that spell level for the day)."
Well, since he switches to spontaneous casting, he doesn't really have used spell slots to regain, he just has spellslots per spell level per day.
So if he used spell recall, he wouldn't have an expanded spell slot with a spell in it to recall; so instead, he gets back an extra spell of that level. So, for example if he used Bladed Dash, he'd be down 1 lvl2 spellslot. Standard magus says "alright, 2 arcana points and I regain the used spell slot that is bladed dash" while eldritch scion would say "Okay, 2 pool points (that is 4 rounds of rage) and I regained a level 2 spell". The way it's phrased may be really off tho. I was trying to go with a rules-like verbiage but it's only a half success.
For the record I also don't think spontaneous casting is that much worse in general (I prefer it massively to prepared casting because I don't like messing with spell lists), but for the Magus it means he loses a bunch of Skill points, and he really doesn't have the skill selection of a Sorcerer to make up for that, and it also ruins his action economy because he can't spell combat and metamagic at the same time.
To me, the Eldritch Scion is fixed with three simple changes:
1) You get the normal Spell Combat progression and don't need to be using mystic focus to use it
2) Your Eldritch Pool works as a Arcane pool right away and you don't have to spend a swift action to enter mystic focus.
3) You can alter a spell with metamagic during Spell Combat, even though you cast spontaneously.
Essentially, the real archetype should read like this:
Eldritch Scion:
Spells: An eldritch scion casts arcane spells drawn from the magus spell list. He can cast any spell he knows without preparing it ahead of time. To learn or cast a spell, an eldritch scion must have a Charisma score equal to at least 10 + the spell's level. The DC for a saving throw against an eldritch scion's spell is 10 + the spell's level + the eldritch scion's Charisma modifier. An eldritch scion can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. His base daily spell allotment is the same as a bard of the same level. In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Charisma score.
An eldritch scion's selection of spells is limited. He has the same number of spells known as a bard of the same level, and can choose new spells to replace old ones at 5th level and every 3 class levels after that, just as a bard does. See the bard for more information on swapping spells known. This replaces the magus's spells class feature.
Bloodline: An eldritch scion gains a bloodrager bloodline. The bloodline is selected at 1st level, and this choice cannot be changed. An eldritch scion's effective bloodrager level for his bloodline abilities is equal to his eldritch scion level. He does not gain any bonus feats, and he gains bonus spells from his bloodline at different levels (see the bonus spell class feature below). To use any ability that normally functions when in a bloodrage, an eldritch scion must spend a point from his eldritch pool (see below).
If an eldritch scion takes levels in another class that grant a bloodline, the bloodlines must be the same type, even if that means that the bloodline of one of the classes must change. Subject to GM discretion, an eldritch scion can change his former bloodline to make them conform.
This ability replaces spell recall.
Eldritch Pool (Su): An eldritch scion gains an eldritch pool of personal magical energy, equal to 1/2 his magus level (minimum 1) + his Charisma modifier. As a free action, he can spend a point of eldritch energy to enter a state of mystical focus for 2 rounds. This allows him to use abilities from his bloodrager bloodline as though he were in a bloodrage, though he gains none of the other benefits or drawbacks of bloodraging. An eldritch scion can also use his eldritch pool as an arcane pool, gaining all the benefits listed with the magus's arcane pool class feature.
Additionally, any magus's class feature or spell from the magus spell list that normally uses a calculation based on Intelligence is instead based on Charisma for an eldritch scion. For example, an eldritch scion with the arcane accuracy magus arcana grants himself an insight bonus on attacks equal to his Charisma bonus, not his Intelligence bonus. This has no effect on the eldritch scion's skills or skill points. This ability replaces arcane pool, and abilities that modify arcane pool also modify eldritch pool.
Bonus Spells: At 7th level, an eldritch scion gains the bonus spell from his bloodrager bloodline that is normally gained at 10th level. He gains the next three bonus spells from his bloodline at 9th, 11th, and 13th levels, respectively. This ability replaces knowledge pool.
I've never really been that interested in giving the magus a rage ability. Especially not interested when he has to rage in order to use his iconic class feature.
I'd like to see a Cha-based spontaneous casting version of the Magus which doesn't force one to use the bloodrage mechanics, but where one gets the chosen bloodline's arcana and can use Magus arcana to buy up the ladder of the chosen bloodline's powers (with class level pre-requisites, of course).
You mean by dropping the Bloodrage class feature entirely and putting back in the Arcane Pool feature (but Cha-based instead)?
Part of my dislike of using the Bloodrager mechanics is that the Sorcerer bloodlines are a lot more developed; the Bloodrager in the ACG only has bloodlines from the CRB. (And many of my favourite bloodlines are in the APG.)
What made the eldritch scion so awful was that it overcomplicated what should have been a relatively simple concept. If I redesigned it, I'd have the Cha-casting and bloodline stuff be completely separate. I'd make each one its own archetype. Bloodlines might be better off as a set of magus arcana similar to the barbarian's bloodline-related rage powers. I'd have the powers trigger on some kind of limited circumstance. Maybe have the powers go active for 1 round after you cast a spell. This way, you'll likely have to spell combat or cast a spell in preparation for spellstrike to make use of it, which seems acceptable to me.
Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Cyrad wrote:
What made the eldritch scion so awful was that it overcomplicated what should have been a relatively simple concept. If I redesigned it, I'd have the Cha-casting and bloodline stuff be completely separate. I'd make each one its own archetype
Personally, I'm okay with the Bloodrage stuff they went through to flesh out the bloodline stuff. I know a lot of people like archetypes to be more like puzzle pieces that can be mixed and matched like ACFs from 3.5, but I appreciate it when flavor really gets into the archetype and prevents it from being bland.
That being said, I think Eldritch Scion being compatible with only Staff Magus is a bit of a problem. Replacing too much for the sake of replacing it.
An archetype that just switched the Magus to spontaneous would be a bit too bland is my opinion.
What made the eldritch scion so awful was that it overcomplicated what should have been a relatively simple concept. If I redesigned it, I'd have the Cha-casting and bloodline stuff be completely separate. I'd make each one its own archetype
Personally, I'm okay with the Bloodrage stuff they went through to flesh out the bloodline stuff. I know a lot of people like archetypes to be more like puzzle pieces that can be mixed and matched like ACFs from 3.5, but I appreciate it when flavor really gets into the archetype and prevents it from being bland.
I'm fine with both types of archetypes. I like the kensai as much as I like the bladebound magus. I even once listed the different types of archetypes based on the intent of the designer. But people really wanted a Charisma magus for building character concepts. Unfortunately, the eldritch scion was the only magus archetype in the book because its ridiculously overcomplicated, unfun mechanics took up so much page space. Redefining a whole new pointless resource took up 20% of the page and spell recall got replaced with an ability that does nothing by itself.
You mean by dropping the Bloodrage class feature entirely and putting back in the Arcane Pool feature (but Cha-based instead)?
Part of my dislike of using the Bloodrager mechanics is that the Sorcerer bloodlines are a lot more developed; the Bloodrager in the ACG only has bloodlines from the CRB. (And many of my favourite bloodlines are in the APG.)
Well, the way it is here, you could pick up and use the sorcerer bloodline powers and ignore bloodrager powers. I'm thinking since it does not specify, you could pick a sorc bloodline that has no BR equivalent. You just could not use your arcanas to pick up BR bloodline powers (since they don't exist).
As for removing bloodrage and just using arcane pool, it's a bit messy because of bloodrage powers. Maybe there could be some compromise, something like...
Eldritch Pool
An Eldritch Scion's arcane pool is equal to 1/2 his level+his CHA modifier. Additionally, any magus's class feature or spell from the magus spell list that normally uses a calculation based on Intelligence is instead based on Charisma for an eldritch scion. For example, an eldritch scion with the arcane accuracy magus arcana grants himself an insight bonus on attacks equal to his Charisma bonus, not his Intelligence bonus. This has no effect on the eldritch scion's skills or skill points.
Additionally, if the Eldritch Scion has any bloodrager bloodline powers, he may decide to use them instead of enchanting his weapon; using each power is equivalent to +1 bonus (so if a 5th level Eldritch scion wants to use the first and 4th level bloodrager bloodline powers of his bloodline, he needs to spend 2 pool points and can't add any bonus to his weapon). The effect lasts the same duration as a pool enhancement, or until he decides to enhance another weapon/himself again (if he enhances both his weapon and himself with a bloodline power, releasing the weapon ends its enhancement, but the power remains active until the rest of the duration).
I just thought of something for Spell Recall for a spontaneous casting Magus. Not sure why I just thought of it since I have been toying with the idea of this for item-bonded Arcane Sorcerers for a while.
A spontaneous casting Magus who has Spell Recall or an item-bonded Arcane Sorcerer would have the option of maintaining and studying a spellbook. Although this does nothing for their normal spellcasting, if they use Spell Recall or the Arcane Bond item's related ability, they get the option to cast any spell from the spellbook, provided that they are high enough level to cast it and it is on their spell list, even if it is not one of their spells known.
For an item-bonded Arcane Sorcerer, the limit of 1 use per day prevents this from being overly powerful. For a spontaneous casting Magus with a decent sized Arcane pool, this would allow several spells to be cast this way, so it might need to be balanced by making it less efficient than normal Spell Recall.
1) Keep spell combat as is
2) Use bard progression at 1st level (no loss of progression); CHA caster
3) Keep Magus spell list
4) Gain blood rage 4 levels late (rage as a bloodrager -3)
5) Keep magus arcana, lose one choice for each bloodline power acquired
6) Allow spellstrike @ 4th (call it blood strike) only during blood rage
7) lose spell book
8) lose bloodline spells
9) lose bloodline feats
10) lose arcana that make no sense for a spontaneous caster
11) Possibly allow 2 handed weapons with spell combat
