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I was just wondering what does it take in people's opinion to set up your own sovereign state? Not taking about mechanics so much as what thematic or roleplaying element do you think is necessary for established kingdoms to view you as a fellow power in the world rather than a colony of somewhere else or a power mad usurper.
1) Area of the kingdom.
2) Population of the kingdom.
3) Exports.
4) Power.
5) Something else.
If a mythic 20th level mage creates a demi-plane calls themselves high Punjabi of borne sweetie and exports raw goods in exchange for cultural artifacts (books, musical instruments, folk songs etc) would Borne Sweetie be recognised as a legitimate kingdom by the existing powers? Would it be a legitimate kingdom if rather than a demiplane made by a mythic mage it was a physical kingdom (as opposed to a magical one) carved out of the wilderness by a high level fighter and his followers, or if a part of adventurers conquered an existing kingdom? What element do you feel is necessary for a place to go down on the maps and records of existing kingdoms as a valid power?
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Usually just need a charter of the land + official paperwork showing your title, which is relatively easy to get when you make your kingdom from scratch. Now of course, the mythic 20th level mage has an impressive resume , so people knows if he is trustworthy etc...and now the only thing left is to establish relationship with the nearby kingdoms, for trade, establishing your legacy etc...
Conquering is also one way to be "legit" but well not sure how long you would last, before someone sends a group of adventurers to take care of you.
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If a mythic 20th level mage creates a demi-plane calls themselves high Punjabi of borne sweetie and exports raw goods in exchange for cultural artifacts (books, musical instruments, folk songs etc) would Borne Sweetie be recognised as a legitimate kingdom by the existing powers?
A mythic 20th level mage can make his bedchamber be recongnized as a legitimate kingdom. He's a mythic 20th level mage, after all (same goes for non-mythic 20th level mages in settings that like to pretend sanity). Legitimacy, if we get down to it, is just the matter of having so much power that people start caring about offending you.
I would say if you wanted to be viewed as a sovereign state by other sovereign states, you need to have some real estate that can be marked on their maps and enough power to prevent any adjacent states from telling you what to do.
If all your real estate is on a different plane, then they should view you as some sort of extra-planar power and not some real world power. They might even try to seal you off, regardless of whatever you are.
Any paperwork, exports, names, character levels you have is not revelant.
People would need to be able to point at your land and say, "That's the Punjabi".
You need Land & Power.
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I don't really think it is particularly useful to talk about these sort of thing in the abstract. That is, what it takes to be recognized as a “sovereign state” is going to vary wildly across space and time. Moreover some power may very well recognize you as a sovereign state, while other at the same time staunchly refuse to treat you as anything but a warlord, criminal or terrorist (for a modern day example see: Transdniester, Somaliland, the Pakistani FATA regions).
In real terms I think what is important is that at least one, preferably several established powers see an advantage in recognizing the new sovereign as partner in the game of international politics. This may come about in one of several ways. Some states may wish to support the new nation on pure ideological grounds (Andoran supporting a newly formed democratic state). Others may do so out of a feeling of ethnic solidarity (The Land of the Linnorm Kings giving support to an Ulfen-lead breakaway region of Irrisen). In some cases the head of state of a major power may be personally bribed to use his influence to legitimize the newly created sovereign (Grand Prince of Taldor seems like a great candidate). Finally a number of states might be eager to support any power able to stabilize otherwise troublesome regions. If a human warlord was able to claim and hold large swaths of the Holf of Belkzen or the Stoval Plateau several counties might throw their support behind him, hoping to create a viable buffer state to shield themselves from the barbarians of the wilderness.
might is right in this case. the only thing that makes your kingdom legitamate is if other kingdoms acknowledge that it is so. either through fear, or diplomacy, or war or magical charms. it is legitimate to you because you say it is, and its legimate to them because they say it is, and thats how it actually works in real life too.
In the real world, the requirements for statehood are traditionally: control of territory and population, plus recognition by other states. (See the 1933 Montevideo Convention for details.)
A powerful mage that controls neither territory nor population would not typically be viewed as a state. On the other hand, a powerful mage that owns a cottage and surrounding garden, plus her three henchmen, could probably "persuade" other states to recognize her sovereignty over that cottage if it were made clear, for example, that the alternative was burying the other state under four feet of molten rock.
A bigger question is why the mage would want to become a state. If she's looking for relief from taxation, for example, it would be just as easy to persuade the Chancellor of the Exchequer to grant such relief (if the alternative was burying the taxing authority under four feed of molten rock.)
One of my players was declared king by a group of common folk who set up shop just next to the wizard's tower and asked for protection. Since said wizard is a 20th level powerhouse with equally impressive friends (the rest of the party who built a house next door and "retired"), and the land was unclaimed, nobody else in the region argued, and since the wizard is a nice guy, he sort of fell into rulership by accident.
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I would say if you wanted to be viewed as a sovereign state by other sovereign states, you need to have some real estate that can be marked on their maps and enough power to prevent any adjacent states from telling you what to do.
If all your real estate is on a different plane, then they should view you as some sort of extra-planar power and not some real world power. They might even try to seal you off, regardless of whatever you are.
Any paperwork, exports, names, character levels you have is not revelant.
People would need to be able to point at your land and say, "That's the Punjabi".
You need Land & Power.
I would think being the princess of a land west of the moon would not be a bar to being recognised as a sovereign state in a world that deals with extra planar powers. If there's a recognised portal, a large expense of land and valuable exports the fact their entire realm is located on another plane would reduce the odds of invasion as they can obviously create more if they need it.
@Orfamy
The sticking point is recognition but id imagine something can be worked out there. As for why a mage would do this even 20th level archmages sometimes like to be a ruler. Or can see it offering advantages serving another doesn't.
The sticking point is recognition but id imagine something can be worked out there.
I don't see it as much of a sticking point, really.
If the mage and his/her territory is somehow valuable to the kingdom of Arglebargle, there's no real reason for Arglebargle to withhold recognition. (Generally, the only reason to withhold recognition in the real world is because someone else claims a block of territory and you don't want to get embroiled in that dispute... for example, North Korea doesn't recognize South Korea because North Korea claims that territory; the United States doesn't recognize the ROC [Taiwan] because the PRC also claims the island.)
Even if there's no direct value to recognizing the Mage's Republic of Wherever, the mage could easily make it indirectly valuable, taking a page from Don Corleone's school of diplomacy. (E.g., "either your brains or your signature are going to be on that treaty in five minutes.") Of course, this approach doesn't bode well for the long-term viability of the MRW, but it seemed to work for Baba Yaga in the establishment of Irrisen.
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The sticking point is recognition but id imagine something can be worked out there.I don't see it as much of a sticking point, really.
If the mage and his/her territory is somehow valuable to the kingdom of Arglebargle, there's no real reason for Arglebargle to withhold recognition. (Generally, the only reason to withhold recognition in the real world is because someone else claims a block of territory and you don't want to get embroiled in that dispute... for example, North Korea doesn't recognize South Korea because North Korea claims that territory; the United States doesn't recognize the ROC [Taiwan] because the PRC also claims the island.)
Even if there's no direct value to recognizing the Mage's Republic of Wherever, the mage could easily make it indirectly valuable, taking a page from Don Corleone's school of diplomacy. (E.g., "either your brains or your signature are going to be on that treaty in five minutes.") Of course, this approach doesn't bode well for the long-term viability of the MRW, but it seemed to work for Baba Yaga in the establishment of Irrisen.
True although I was thinking more "Either your signature acknowledging Tellaria as a sovereign kingdom under my families rule goes on this treaty or our gems, precious metals and other valuable resources won't be traded with you. We have strict limits on the amount we can export and sadly those exports will be divided amongst the nation's who recognize us as an equal. For protection you understand, I'm sure you wouldn't export to a nation who regarded you as unclaimed territory either.
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I was just wondering what does it take in people's opinion to set up your own sovereign state? Not taking about mechanics so much as what thematic or roleplaying element do you think is necessary for established kingdoms to view you as a fellow power in the world rather than a colony of somewhere else or a power mad usurper.
I would think being the princess of a land west of the moon would not be a bar to being recognised as a sovereign state in a world that deals with extra planar powers. If there's a recognised portal, a large expense of land and valuable exports the fact their entire realm is located on another plane would reduce the odds of invasion as they can obviously create more if they need it.
I would consider a Princess of a Land West of the Moon to be an extra-planar being from an extra-planar realm, not an neighbor nation-state.
If this portal showed up in my lands, Princess Moon would need to answer a lot of questions!
I'm going to want to have a full accounting of what's on the other side, if it is in my territory or borders mine.
Plus, where exactly is this portal? Right in a city/town, in the boonies, on the border with the nice people or the border with the numb-nuts!
Do I just let the numb-nuts try to invade you?
Do you cause friction between me and the nice people?
How are you going to trade stuff, teleport it, fly it, or load it up on wagons? And then whose roads are you going to use?
You want to export valuables, so who is going to escort/guard those valuables? Oh, you mean you want to send troops through whose lands?
This is all just basic stuff that would need to be answered before we started our portal sealing magics, and most other nations would too. That would seem to be rule number one with dealing with permanent extra-planar portals unless you want another potential Worldwound.
It would seem that you want/crave recognition from just a few nations near your portal so you can trade your resources evenly since you admit you have a finite amount.
I would say you'll need to give the diplomats the grand tour of a Land West of the Moon, throw a bunch of Royal Balls inviting the everybody, send out lots of gifts and bribes, and then after months and months if not years later negotiate some trade treaties and such recognizing Princess Moon as whatever.
I personally feel that an extra planar kingdom with valuable exports would make a less useful ally than primitive kingdom that borders your land.
Say Kingdom A is willing to make an alliance with a newfound kingdom. YOur kingdom, Kingdom B is wealthy but is extra planar and can only be accessed by portals.
I found a kingdom of somewhat civilized boggards, kingdom C, along the massive swamp that borders Kingdom A. Kingdom C wants to be Kingdom A's allies to help them to be recognized. Kingdom C has a couple small cities and tons of villages, not any super valuable exports like gems but has plenty of fish, lumber, and a decent sized standing army. There are plenty of other natural resources but the my kingdom doesn't yet have the capabilities to access them yet and Kingdom A could pay very cheaply to have the rights to the resources.
If Kingdom A was enemies with a nearby Kingdom D who would be the more useful ally? The kingdom who could only funnel troops through small portal and could be completely sealed off from the fight if Kingdom D has some decent spellcasters or the army that protects an entire border and who can't be stopped from sending troops to help and can send whatever aid and supplies they have.
Also would you rather be in a war with kingdom B that can be sealed off with proper magic or Kingdom C that literally has an army on your doorstep? Sure a Land West of the Moon would be hard to invade and take the fight to them but would you really rather try and invade the Empire of Bogmuck?
This has a simple answer: to realise that you are the nation. As it's ruler, the nation cannot exist without you, and therefore you must be willing to do whatever it takes to maintain and increase your power. Rule according to your will, make alliances when useful, and crush your enemies through open or circumspect means.
At least that's what I read in the guide.
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There's plenty of unclaimed islands big enough for a port and a small town as a trading outpost. No need to place the link in someone else's kingdom just find a nice island and trade with your neighboursvia ships. This is a proper kingdom and frankly if you started demanding to know all about my land like that'd just go trade with someone else. Extra-planar or not I suspect many kingdoms will be happy to treat you as an equal power.
The worldwound is a deliberate infernal invasion not the normal of portals.