Dueling weapon ability on a gauntlet question

[Jeff Clem]

I'm posting this question for a friend.
If I put the dueling weapon ability on a gauntlet can I still benefit from the ability if I have a ex. long sword in that hand?
Do I get the benefit of the gauntlet for initiative even though I will be fighting with the longsword?

Dueling

Price +14,000 gp
Aura faint transmutation; CL 5th; Weight —
DESCRIPTION

This special ability can only be placed on melee weapons. A dueling weapon (which must be a weapon that can be used with the Weapon Finesse feat) gives the wielder a +4 enhancement bonus on initiative checks, provided the weapon is drawn and in hand when the Initiative check is made. It provides a +2 bonus on disarm checks and feint checks, a +2 bonus to CMD to resist disarm attempts, and a +2 to the DC to perform a feint against the wielder.

[Claxon]

No, you only benefit from wielding one weapon at a time. Unfortunately wielding is very poorly defined in Pathfinder.

However, there is an FAQ to create a precedent for this situation, at least I think.

Quote:

Defending Weapon Property: Do I have to make attack rolls with the weapon to gain its AC bonus?

Yes. Merely holding a defending weapon is not sufficient. Unless otherwise specified, you have to use a magic item in the manner it is designed (use a weapon to make attacks, wear a shield on your arm so you can defend with it, and so on) to gain its benefits.
Therefore, if you don't make an attack roll with a defending weapon on your turn, you don't gain its defensive benefit.
Likewise, while you can give a shield the defending property (after you've given it a +1 enhancement bonus to attacks, of course), you wouldn't get the AC bonus from the defending property unless you used the shield to make a shield bash that round--unless you're using the shield as a weapon (to make a shield bash), the defending weapon property has no effect.

I think the intention here is clear. You must use the weapon to benefit from the weapon enhancement properties. Now with dueling it is a weird situation because you can't use it before combat begins, but I think the intention is that you must be capable of using or intend to use the weapon. Basically it's to avoid cheaply enhancing one weapon (with beneficial enhancements that would otherwise increase the cost of the main weapon) while using another as your main weapon. Now dueling is less of a problem in this case since it's a flat cost, but I think the principle is there.

[Jeff Clem]

Claxon wrote:

No, you only benefit from wielding one weapon at a time. Unfortunately wielding is very poorly defined in Pathfinder.

However, there is an FAQ to create a precedent for this situation, at least I think.

Quote:

Defending Weapon Property: Do I have to make attack rolls with the weapon to gain its AC bonus?

Yes. Merely holding a defending weapon is not sufficient. Unless otherwise specified, you have to use a magic item in the manner it is designed (use a weapon to make attacks, wear a shield on your arm so you can defend with it, and so on) to gain its benefits.
Therefore, if you don't make an attack roll with a defending weapon on your turn, you don't gain its defensive benefit.
Likewise, while you can give a shield the defending property (after you've given it a +1 enhancement bonus to attacks, of course), you wouldn't get the AC bonus from the defending property unless you used the shield to make a shield bash that round--unless you're using the shield as a weapon (to make a shield bash), the defending weapon property has no effect.

I think the intention here is clear. You must use the weapon to benefit from the weapon enhancement properties. Now with dueling it is a weird situation because you can't use it before combat begins, but I think the intention is that you must be capable of using or intend to use the weapon. Basically it's to avoid cheaply enhancing one weapon (with beneficial enhancements that would otherwise increase the cost of the main weapon) while using another as your main weapon. Now dueling is less of a problem in this case since it's a flat cost, but I think the principle is there.

Clax this is what I said to my friend.

Looking at the description on dueling the weapon in hand is the weapon you are going into combat with. Now if you have another weapon in your gauntlet hand then that is what you are going in to combat with.
I would allow this with one stipulation, in order to get the initiative bonus you would not be able to have any weapons in your hands except the gauntlet only. So you would have to spend a move action to draw a weapon or have quick draw feat or call weapon ability on your weapons.

[Claxon]

I think that is reasonable Jeff.

If he does not start combat with a weapon in his gauntlet hand, and has to either spend a move action to draw the weapon or draw it as part of a move or use the feat Quick Draw I think the balance is relatively preserved. I would accept such an action.

I will admit it does strain believability with how it functions, but the rule is based on balancing how things function, not on what makes sense or is more believable.

[SlimGauge]

Most magic on weapons is "Use-activated". The defending property is an example of this. Simply wielding (having the weapon READY for use) isn't enough, it must be ACTIVELY wielded (actually using the weapon to attack). This is were the confusion arises; between ready wielding and active wielding.

This particular property couldn't perform its function of providing an initiative bonus if it was completely use activated, since determining initiative happens before you could use (attack with) it. So instead, they call out the activation requirement for that ability as "drawn and in hand" rather than saying "wielded" (as that would add to the confusion rather than dispel it).

I concur with Claxon.

[NikolaiJuno]

Yup. Doable, but must be only weapon in hand.