Mudball
School conjuration [earth]; Level druid 1, magus 1, sorcerer/wizard 1, witch 1
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S
Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Effect single fist-sized blob of sticky mud
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw Reflex negates; see text; Spell Resistance no
When you cast this spell, you conjure a single ball of sticky mud and launch it at an enemy's face as a ranged touch attack. If the mudball hits, the target is blinded. Each round at the beginning of its turn, a creature blinded by this spell can attempt a Reflex saving throw to shake off the mud, ending the effect. The mudball can also be wiped off by the creature affected by it or by a creature adjacent to the creature affected by it as a standard action.
If I cast mudball, make a ranged touch attack, and hit, does the target immediately get to make a saving throw against the spell not to be blinded at all, or do they get blinded and make the first save during their first round afterwards?
The "Reflex negates" seem to indicate they get to do it immediately (rather than "reflex partial") but the text seem to indicate they don't get a save vs the initial effect.
Thoughts?
EDIT: Some links to additional resources to take into account.
The PRD on saving throws (it's d20pfsrd, but it's the same text, just easier to link)
The PRD on Hold Person which has similar language without the touch attack part
The PRD on Ray of Enfeeblement, which has similar language but with Fortitude (Partial)
The PRD on Ghoul Touch, which has _very_ similar language and seems like it would follow the same rules as Mudball as far as I can see
At the start of their turn. It says so in the spell. The line "Save: Reflex negates" only tells you the kind of save and what happens when you make it. The description tells you when the save is made.
Best offensive wand in the game. Ready action to mudball the target after their turn starts so they miss the trigger and have to choose between being blinded or wasting a standard. You could even ready action to when they attack or cast a spell, that way they'll be blinded during their action.
At the start of their turn. It says so in the spell. The line "Save: Reflex negates" only tells you the kind of save and what happens when you make it. The description tells you when the save is made.
My issue with this is that when it comes to other spells, such as Hold Person, it doesn't say they have to fail the saving throw to be affected either. Yet it is clear that when you are targeted by Hold Person, you get an immediate saving throw.
Saving Throw Will negates; see text; Spell Resistance yes
The subject becomes paralyzed and freezes in place. It is aware and breathes normally but cannot take any actions, even speech.
It seems to be kind of a gray area, and due to your second paragraph - that it is "the best offensive wand in the game" - I'm kind of unwilling to just buy into that interpretation with nothing more definite.
It says 'if the mudball hits, the target is blinded', full stop, no 'if the save is failed', period. Hold Person lacks this clause, therefore operating normally with a saving throw when the spell is first cast.
I updated the OP with a few links to rules which might impact it. If mudball does not give a save on a successful hit, how about Ghoul Touch? Will that paralyze anyone hit, period? In that case, it seems a Reach Ghoul Touch would be faaar too powerful. Like, mudball is very powerful without an initial save, but Ghoul Touch would be game-breakingly good.
The difference between a blinding spell at casting and a paralysing or stunning spell upon casting is that you'd drop your weapons or other stuff if stunned. Blinded won't bother you that way.
The difference between a blinding spell at casting and a paralysing or stunning spell upon casting is that you'd drop your weapons or other stuff if stunned. Blinded won't bother you that way.
Well, I know the difference between blinding and paralyzing (though there's more than that; being paralyzed is basically a death sentence, while a single-round blindness is a big deal it's not even in the same ballpark), but that doesn't really help with how to interpret the spell.
However, normal writing practice is that "reflex negates" happens at the moment the spell is cast. Otherwise the text should be "reflex negates (see text)".
It does say "reflex negates (see text)", but Hold Person also do that which can indicate that the "see text" is in reference to the extra saves granted during the later turns.
My guess would be that the intent is that the enemy gets an immediate save, as without that it's about as powerful as Blindness which is a second level spell (less powerful at low levels, more powerful at high levels). And blindness isn't a weak spell to begin with (it's kinda in the middle IMO). But I'm not at all sure; it wouldn't surprise me if they don't mind racial spells to be stronger than generic spells.
Blindness is permanent, this isn't. And Blindness doesn't require a to-hit roll to inflict.
I know, but on the other hand, a to-hit-roll is much, _much_ easier to land (especially at mid to high levels, and especially if you don't specialize in the school) than a saving throw, Mudball has SR: No, reflex is generally a weaker save than Fortitude (especially for non-casters, who are most hurt by Blindness) and due to it's instantaneous effect can't be removed with Dispel Magic. Blindness on the other hand has the (usually bad) option of causing deafness, as well as greater range and only allowing a single save, and not requiring a somatic component.
Hence my claim: Blindness is more powerful at low levels (where enemies tend to have similar ref to fort saves, BaB is low, and encounters aren't decided quite as quickly) while Mudball is more powerful at mid- to high levels (where being blinded a single round is much worse, reflex save is often notably lower than fort, and the BaB has began to outspace the touch AC).
If it doesn't allow a save the first time around, I agree with Shane; it is no doubt the most powerful offensive wand around, and probably the most powerful offensive 1st level spell once you've reached level 6 or so, and remains that way ever after.
Which might be okay, some spell will always be the strongest, but it seems like a really big jump, hence I wonder if that's really what's intended.
(And that's not even going into the whole Ghoul Touch business; a Reach Ghoul Touch would be more powerful than an Energy Drain).
I agree with Shane LeRose's reading of the spell as-written.
The spell says the Reflex save is specifically to "shake off the mud, ending the effect". How could you shake something off if it never got on you in the first place? How could you end an effect that hadn't started? Keep in mind that turns are theoretically happening simultaneously. Sure, with multiple combatants, that enemy might seem like it's been blinded for a long time, but no time at all has passed in-game. As someone who has had mud in my face before, I can tell you it would be fairly impressive for a person to get all the mud out of their eyes in less than 6 seconds, much less a single second; so managing to negate it completely as a free Reflex save at the start of your turn is quite good. Furthermore, the spell is conjuring, not illusion or enchantment. It's real mud that physically hits the target. A much better rules question would be whether or not you can use Mudball from behind a target, or against a target with eyes scattered in multiple places.
I agree with Shane LeRose's reading of the spell as-written.
The spell says the Reflex save is specifically to "shake off the mud, ending the effect". How could you shake something off if it never got on you in the first place?
That may very well be the case, but then how would you treat Ghoul Touch? (linked in the OP)
Mudball is not affected by Spell Resistance because it's not magical mud, but physical. Ghoul Touch, on the other hand, is magical. When hit by harmful magic, you receive your chance to save immediately. Even if you don't agree with that interpretation, the fact is that Mudball says: "Saving Throw Reflex negates; see text" while Ghoul Touch says: "Saving Throw Fortitude negates". Mudball says to see the text, and then explains it in the text ("each round at the beginning of its turn…"). Ghoul Touch does not elaborate in any way, so the save is immediate, as per the general rule of negating which means there is no effect.
On a side-note, it is up to the GM to determine just how common Mudball is in the world as, per the ARG, it is supposed to be a Goblin spell. If the GM says you can somehow find and/or make a Wand of Mudball, more power to you. There are multiple race-specific spells, and they are almost all quite powerful. Some are much more powerful than a temporary blindness, so I wouldn't worry about this. It's useful, but not broken. =]
Mudball is not affected by Spell Resistance because it's not magical mud, but physical. Ghoul Touch, on the other hand, is magical. When hit by harmful magic, you receive your chance to save immediately.
Spell resistance and saves are completely separated, and the treatment of one does not influence the treatment of the other. Spells can have or not have save or SR with no correlation to having or not having a save (though I don't know if there is any actual printed spell that combines no SR with a Will save).
Even if you don't agree with that interpretation, the fact is that Mudball says: "Saving Throw Reflex negates; see text" while Ghoul Touch says: "Saving Throw Fortitude negates". Mudball says to see the text, and then explains it in the text ("each round at the beginning of its turn…"). Ghoul Touch does not elaborate in any way, so the save is immediate, as per the general rule of negating which means there is no effect.
Ghoul touch does elaborate, and refers to the Fort save specifically and only in relation to the stench, but doesn't have the (see text) tag. But if the (see text) is relevant, Hold Person has that too.
My point about SR was only in reference to my thought process in rationalizing the rules, which is why I referred to it as an 'interpretation'.
The part about Saving Throws and whether they say "see text" should be taken as trying to follow RAW. The spell does what the spell says it does. Paralyze is the primary effect, and that part of the spell provokes a Fortitude save and may be precluded by SR. Sickness is a secondary effect for people standing nearby, and text was added to clarify that secondary effect, not to influence or reiterate the primary effect.
A better example than Ghoul Touch would probably be Glitterdust, which is a Conjuration spell, and blinds creatures in an area, Will negates. Glitterdust says the saving throw is to end the blindness, which seems pretty straightforward, and that you may "attempt new saving throws" each round, at the end of their turn, emphasis added. It says the glitter cannot be removed, and it will continue to sparkle until it fades. This means that you are blinded unless you see through the bright lights through sheer force of will. I read that as allowing a save immediately, and a new save, if required, at the end of each turn thereafter. Mudball, on the other hand clearly states that there is literal mud on your target's face, and to see the text for how to negate it, whereupon we learn that you can only remove it by "shaking it off" at the beginning of each turn.
Hold Person is an Enchantment spell that affects the target magically, the same as Ghoul Touch does, but with a Will save instead of Fortitude. It is not the same as a Conjured physical object which has become attached to your person.
I'm sorry, but I don't see anything about these spells that would make me change my mind on this. I agree with Shane and Zhayne's interpretations, and would rule that you receive an immediate save against Hold Person or Ghoul Touch with additional chances to roll your save during each following turn, but would receive your first save against Mudball at the beginning of your next turn.
Wow. I'm gone for a few days and look what happens!
Mudball is an extremely efficient spell. It's also very clearly worded. Best spell ever? Not even close, that is too subjective of a concept. As a wand that your monkey familiar can wield as his "flinging" stick? Yeah, it's kind of good. You still need to hit (you will miss every once in awhile and it will suck when you do, trust me), and the target needs to be suseptible to being blinded (which is most things), but having a caster spend each of their turns mud-locking a target only matters to a party of rogues. Otherwise there are usually better things a caster could be doing.
I still don't understand people who think the save is immediate. Nothing supports this. No rule can even be sighted that supports this line of thinking. Plus, even though it's a good spell, it's in no way the best spell.