Hey all!
So, title says it all. A dwarf cleric in need of an archtype and/or domains.
Details: This is a for A LOW money, LOW magic game. We rarely get wands/scrolls/potions/etc and those we do get are generally of the healing variety. As a rule of thumb, if we can't cast it ourselves, we don't have access to it. That said, party at the moment is level 7, and has a fighter, a ranger, and a life oracle who thinks he's a summoner (90% of the spells he casts are "summon monster"). Note the entire lack of arcane magic.
The fighter and ranger are sword and shield, so we've been entirely melee, only pulling back to let the oracle patch us up or channel. The oracle often tries to heal on the front lines, so the bad guys get an attack of opportunity for healing nearly every session, so...yea.
That said, I am torn between taking the 'merciful healer' archtype or domains to get some wizardly support. Merciful healer gives me only the healing domain, but takes attack of opportunities out of the picture (and the DM loves those as mentioned). Where if I grab a domain like travel, I get spells like 'fly' and 'teleport' which is sort of a big deal when you can't access them.
I'd like to think I could avoid most opportunity attacks, but seeing as how that's the biggest problem for our current healer, not having to worry about that ever is a nice feeling. (Incidentally, is there any other feat/class that does this, as this is the only instance I've found of this ability).
To muddy the matter further, the oracle's player has mentioned several times he'd rather be an arcane caster and is only an oracle as "we needed a healer." If I show up as a cleric, he's said he is quite likely to switch to an arcane class. That makes the arcane spells a little less drool worthy... but if I skip the big arcane spells for myself, and he doesn't grab them or doesn't switch over, it bites me in the rear.
So yea, hence I'm torn. Any suggestions or advice on you'd run it?
Clerics heal just dandy without Merciful Healer, via Channel Energy. Just take Selective Channel so you don't heal the enemies. Then go with an aggressive build, as dropping the enemies faster means less damage dealt to the party overall (i call it 'pre-emptive healing'). I personally like Gorum for this, Rage and Ferocity domains IIRC.
BTW, is your oracle failing his cast-defensively checks, or just forgetting to make them?
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@OP: Which type of cleric do you want to build?
Perhaps the default 'support cleric' is what you're looking for. Perhaps not. Cleric-as-healing-platform is a waste of an otherwise solid class.
The Forge of Combat essay has three combat roles:
Hammer => Inflicts HP damage
Arm => Support
Anvil => Battlefield Control
The ideal well-balanced party has an Anvil, an Arm, and several Hammers.
This party has a Fighter, Ranger, Oracle, and your new Cleric.
Fighter => Hammer
Ranger => Hammer
Oracle => (Primary Arm/Secondary Anvil) or (Primary Anvil/Secondary Arm), depnding on build and play style
Cleric => Primary Arm, secondary role as either Hammer or Anvil
This party has two Hammers. The Oracle is naturally an Arm, but in using lots of Summon Monster spells fills the Anvil role, which is usually filled by an Arcane Caster. It sounds like the Oracle player wants to change to full Anvil-style either with an Arcane Caster, or by playing the Oracle as a summoner. This seems like it could be a balanced party, but isn't quite there yet.
Suggestion: Talk things over the the Oracle player. Your two characters must, between you, cover both Battlefield Control and Team Support. The Oracle can already do Battlefield Control through summoning spells, which are perfect for that purpose. It sounds like that player wants you to pick up the Arm duties. Work out how you want to split these duties.
Nearly every cleric build makes a solid Arm. You could play the default style of support cleric, or you could play any of the various more exotic flavors. For example, a Battle Cleric fills the Arm role and doubles as a Hammer. For another example, a summoning-specialized evangelist cleric fills the Arm role and doubles as an Anvil.
You probably should not play a Battle Cleric, as you may drastically outperform the Fighter and Ranger and make them look bad. They both chose sword-and-board style, which badly handicaps their damage output in a mostly offensive game. A buffed up reach-style battle cleric would probably inflict more damage than both of them combined, whilst simultaneously protecting the back rank and casting useful spells. You don't want that.
Unless one of the exotic cleric flavors catches your interest, you should probably just build a support cleric. Watch out for, and avoid, the healbot role. If your allies routinely need healing in combat then they are probably making a lot of tactical errors and taking more damage than they need to. For example, do the Ranger and Fighter know how to wait for summoned monsters, and let them take the brunt of the damage, or do they just charge in and expect the Oracle to heal them? Do the Fighter and Ranger use smart tactics to avoid taking full attacks from fearsome monsters, or do they just take the hits? If your allies depend on and expect in-combat healing then the best thing you can possibly do is teach them to stand on their own, without relying on a healbot. Sometimes, when playing a healer-capable cleric, tough love is called for.
Question/Suggestion to pass on the Fighter and Ranger: do they have an option to switch between Defensive and Offensive modes? In Defensive mode you want that sword and shield. Sometimes, though, it's most important to inflict maximum damage, and your personal Armor Class doesn't matter. In that instance it's usually better to switch to a two handed weapon. A fighter wielding a big reach weapon like, say, a glaive will typically inflict 3x more damage than a fighter wielding sword and shield. Maybe only 2x as much, now that they're 7th level. When is it worth +4 AC (from the shield) to only inflict half as much damage?
You say that the Oracle is often suffering attacks of opportunity while trying to heal the ranger and Fighter. That indicates a problem, as it should not be happening. It implies that neither the Ranger nor the Fighter are able to adequately control the battlefield: they are allowing foes to get at the back rank. It also implies that these characters need in-combat healing, which suggests a problem in itself.
I can almost guarantee that the Ranger or Fighter will say something like, "We need more and better healing". Don't buy it. The problem is that the group is not exerting enough Battlefield Control. Once the group has more effective Battlefield Control, they won't need as much healing. This could come about through you picking up the Arm role, allowing the other player to concentrate on the Anvil role. The poster 'Hmmm' plays some specialized Battlefield Control characters, understands this dynamic well, and may offer useful suggestions.
It sounds like no one in this group makes effective use of reach weapons for zone control: that's another way to both increase outgoing damage and reduce incoming damage, while also protecting your back rank. They might want to look into using a reach weapon for zone control, as that's often the most effective way to keep enemies off the second rank. With proper tactics a reach weapon can sometimes provide far more defensive value than a shield. A few times I've seen parties try this with great success, where everyone picks up a longspear (or other polearm), the party bristles like a porcupine, and all the players notice the defensive synchronicity this gives the entire team.
Yea, battle field control in this group tends to mean 'we're surrounded, now what?" My last character was a rogue, who was often trying to do some control with limited options, from dropping smoke sticks to throwing marbles over the place. The ranger and fighter tend to use 'spring attack' to run around slashing things, and letting the rookie oracle struggling to keep up. Our most powerful damage dealer is the ranger's animal companion: a dog.
The team is NOT optimized, to say the least.
That said, I'm going in knowing I'm likely to be doing some band-aid work. I'm not super familiar with all the cleric spell options yet, but I'm hoping to use some buffs to keep the party going without as much healing as we've needed in the past. Magda (whose name I love by the way) hit it right on the head: I could do a battle cleric and outshine the entire team, but I'd rather be a team player and do more of a support role.
Also, I forgot to mention that this is for a homebrew world using pathfinder rules (no 3pp, no 3.5) so the gods/domains are different. I'm pretty sure if I asked for a god of X alignment and Y domains, it would exist.
Zhayne, I don't actually know if the oracle is making them or failing them in secret, as he does most of his rolls hidden. I'll ask.
Neither the ranger/fighter have two handed weapons. The ranger has a mace (or something like it) for undead, but that's it. The ranger's sword was sundered two sessions ago, and still neither of them carry a back up blade.
As for expecting healing... I'm not sure. No one ever yells 'get over to heal me' or anything, but the DM's enemies hit hard. I think it was last session that the Oracle had to heal the ranger nearly every turn as the damage kept piling up too fast.
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Perhaps build a traditional support cleric with a side of battlefield control? Neither divine caster is ideal at battlefield control, but together they can be very effective.
A dwarven evangelist cleric who likes to trip things with a longspear or dwarven longhammer might be a nice addition. No feats required. Usually you can trip at reach, feeding your team AoOs and extra damage while protecting the back rank. When things get serious you can lash out with as much damage as you need. So long as you limit your STR to 14, avoid using Power Attack, don't become clericzilla too often, and feed them plenty of extra damage, the Fighter and Ranger won't feel overshadowed (page 2) [OOTS].
Seventh level is the sweet spot for an Evangelist archetype cleric (and Bard), because that's when starting Inspire Courage becomes a Move action. For the first six levels your Round 1 Standard Action is spoken for. Finally, you can start Bardsong as a Move action and do something else with your Standard Action. I imagine a dwarven evangelist singing rousing dwarven war songs that deliver timely tactical advice, but there's lots of ways to handle it. Just make sure you have an option that keeps both hands free.
Alternately (Fruian much prefers this option) you could have that same evangelist cleric summon monsters, just like the Oracle. It totally works to have two characters dropping summoned monsters on the board, especially when both your summons are boosted by your Inspire Courage. Doing so might be a way of enhancing and validating this new player's approach, rather than stepping on his toes. Seventh level is also a sweet spot for a summoning cleric. A 7th level Lawful Good evangelist cleric has two fantastic options for Sacred Summons: inspired Lantern Archon and inspired Hound Archon. Make short work of a medium-sized dragon with Superior Sacred Summons Monster IV to get 2-4 Inspired Lantern Archons.
Since those options don't conflict, you could even do both. At the same time, if that's your wish. When you want to let the others shine you can hang back in support mode. When the chips are down you can fill multiple roles as needed.
The above is just one suggestion. Once you know what you want your cleric to do we can help you choose the domain[s], archetype, and equipment.
I really don't think anything heals better than a life oracle. If you want to be a dwarven cleric, I wouldn't rely on channel much because of the charisma penalty.
Sounds like you could use a witch. It'd give some backup healing while providing useful debuffs.
Sorry for the delay in responding. Silly Holidays getting in the way of gaming! The nerve!
Honestly, with the team's set up, I didn't have a master plan for being fully optimized. My initial plan was VERY low key, casting defensive spells and being a heal-bot as needed, and this team will need it. I had planned on grabbing crafting feats (scribe scroll and wands) as when a wand of cure light wounds is a prime find, you're in trouble.
Still, that being said, I am intrigued by this Evangelist idea of yours, Magda. A dwarfen longhammer and tripping could be fun. I've never done a character who uses combat maneuvers, and most times I try a CMB check it might as well be an auto-fail. I'm not sure how I'd make it connect without boosting the CMB with the obvious feats (improved trip, etc). I debated Guiding hand for using wisdom to hit, but that leaves CMD still off of STR so it'ts not worth two feats.
I'd also ask how you feel on it's durability, as Evangelist loses medium armor and spontaneous healing. It's benefits are pretty wicked, though AC loss is a tough pill to swallow. With light armor, boosting DEX would be ideal, but the stat pool is already spread thin on a 20 point build. With a team where everyone is packing a heavy shield, going in with light armor, no shield, and no dex makes this cleric look very squishy.
If I'm not being too demanding here, how would you make it work? It sounds fun in theory, but i'm not sure how it works on paper.
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If you're going to use combat maneuvers, particularly trip, in Pathfinder you must first set reasonably expectations. It will only work against humanoid mooks. Bosses, manticores, dragons, spiders, etc are not for tripping, unless you use Truestrike.
That said, your CMB will be good enough.
The cleric's main tool to succeed in combat isn't feats, it's magic. Clerics are usually feat-starved. The Improved Trip feat only gives you +2 on trip CMB. A 5th level cleric can self-buff to get at least an extra +6 to hit (+8 to CMB) and at least +10 on damage. Add another +2 +2 for your Bardsong, and your trip CMB is rocking an extra +10. Who needs feats?
With all your buffs up you are Clericzilla. Even an awful set of base combat numbers, the which you won't have, starts to look pretty decent when you add an extra +8 to hit and an extra +12 to damage. Don't do the Clericzilla thing too often or too blatantly, because that's how we overshadow Fighters and rangers.
Always buff up before combat begins, never once the fight is on. If you are caught completely unprepared, without any buffs, you are a mediocre combatant. Inspire Courage and do the best you can. There are ways around this problem, such as Swift Action self-buffs while you fight. Warpriests do this better.
Durability is a surprisingly small issue. Magda is an Evangelist Cleric, and she's been a frontline tank since fifth level. There are several parts to durability:
* Armor Class is a small part of durability. It's best to layer your defenses, rather than relying on just AC. Things like miss chance, saves, DR, lots of HP, and avoiding full attacks are a much bigger factor than Armor Class. Unless you find a way to cast the Shield spell, or use a mithral buckler and always take -1 to hit, your AC will never be very good.
* Evangelists clerics lack medium armor proficiency. Easy to fix. Take the trait Armor Expert and drop 4500 gp on mithril agile breastplate armor. You now wear the best possible medium armor, take no penalties of any sort, & move at full speed.
* Evangelists can't convert cure spells & have weak channels. That's fine, you really don't need to convert cure spells. Out of combat do what everyone else does, and rely on wands. Prepare one or two of your best cure spells for emergency in-combat use. At 10th level Magda always carries Breath of Life as a 5th level spell, a single Cure Moderate Wounds, and an Open Spell Slot for each spell level known. Always leave an open spell slot at each level. This allows you to adjust your prepared spells to the needs of the day whenever you take a 15 minute rest. An Open Spell Slot can serve the same purpose as converting a Cure spell, but with a 15 minute time delay.
* An evangelist cleric isn't about healing damage after it's been inflicted. An evangelist cleric is about preventing incoming damage in the first place. Whether it's your bardsong that does it, or your actual person, a downed foe is not inflicting damage. Consider that your +2 +2 Inspire Courage adds, say, 4HP to every ally's attack, on average. You and your four companions (counting the dog) probably attack at least 5 times per round. So your Inspire Courage adds about 4 x 5 = 20 HP damage per round to your side. If your team normally trades damage 1:1 with the enemy, inflicting 20 extra HP damage has about the same combat impact as healing your team 20 HP. When a 7th level cleric casts the 3rd level spell Cure Serious Wounds it heals for 3D8+7 = 20.5 HP. That's a passive effect, before any actions you might take.
* Use smart tactics. You are a secondary combatant and primary spell caster. Don't take on more melee than you can handle. Avoid getting in a toe-to-toe slugfest against a superior foe. Instead use your superior mobility, reach, and tactics to best advantage.
* Don't allow foes to take full attacks against you. For some monsters it doesn't matter, but for monsters with multiple attacks it makes a huge difference. The best example is a ghoul, which gets one attack on a standard action but gets 3 attacks when it can full attack. If you must fight a ghoul, never end your turn where it can 5' step and full attack you. Clever tactical use of a reach weapon allows you to attack multiple times, while almost always denying the full attack to your foe.
Really, if you just stay near the Oracle you will both be safer. You will trip some incoming foes, which reduces incoming damage. Some foes will choose not to provoke your AoO and will keep away, which reduces incoming damage. Your combat style encourages you to not take incoming full attacks, which also reduces incoming damage. If the Oracle decides to start carrying a longspear this will reduce incoming damage, for the same reasons. The Cleric and the Oracle are able to cast touch spells on each other, which also makes both safer.
Here's a sample set of attributes that make for a very effective Dwarven Evangelist Cleric:
STR10 DEX10 CON10+2 INT10 WIS12+2 CHA10
(This is a 2 point build that does the job just fine. None of your primary abilities are attribute-dependant. Since 2 attribute points does the basic job, you are free to decide what you want to be especially talented at.)
If you want to be competent with your weapon you want at least 14 Strength. If you want multiple AoOs you need the Combat Reflexes feat and at least 12 Dexterity, preferably 14 Dexterity. At 7th level your BaB will be 5, so your Dwarven Longhammer attack will be +7 to hit for 2D6+3. CMD is also +7. Pitiful. But, if you pre-buff with (Greater) Magic Weapon +1 +1, Bull's Strength +2 +3, and Divine Favor +2 +2 or better, then start Inspire Courage +2 +2, your weapon attack is +14 to hit for 2D6+11 HP. CMB is now +14. Also drink a Potion of Enlarge Person, cost 50 gp, your CMB increases +2, your reach becomes 20', and your damaging hits inflict 3D6+12 HP. So you can easily buff up to +16 CMB and 20' reach, which is quite respectable at 7th level. A few stacked buff spells triple your combat effectiveness. Larger numbers are possible with optimization, but you don't need that. Still don't try tripping dragons.
Notice how your intrinsic ability (or lack of same) is overshadowed by your spells? You could even keep STR and DEX at 10, yet still buff up your CMB to +12 or +14. This would allow you to trip on the side while, for example, increasing your intelligence to 17. Not that would want to, but you could.
So, if you decide on the trippy option you might choose something like these attributes:
STR14 DEX14 CON14+2 INT10 WIS14+2 CHA10 Feats: Combat Reflexes, 3 of Your choice
If you decide on the summony option you might want these attributes:
STR10 DEX10 CON16+2 INT10 WIS16+2 CHA10 Feats: Superior Summoning, Sacred Summons, 2 of Your choice
If you want to do both it would be
STR14 DEX14 CON14+2 INT10 WIS14+2 CHA10 Feats: Combat Reflexes, Superior Summoning, Sacred Summons, 1 of your choice
Say you want to pump up your HP. Take the Toughness feat, buy a belt of +2 CON, and put all Favored Class Bonus into HP. At 7th level you will have at least 80 HP.
So, which deity most interests your dwarf? Here's the Golarion Dwarven Pantheon. All of them seem to have at least one good domain.
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Upon re-reading that, I spotted some errors:
* You're a dwarf, so your mobility is dwarven. So is your armor capacity. All these issues, and more, would be resolved by dipping one level of fighter. But by 7th level you probably lose more than you gain with a dip, even for a Dwarf. Not sure of your best option.
* Forgot to add CHA - 2 for dwarven stats
* You said low magic & low magical toys. You can't rely on wands for healing. Sorry about that. Instead you'll have to rely on your prepared cure spells, your conventional medical skill and time, your open spell slots, your weak 3D6 channels, and your ability to mitigate damage. Perhaps consider increasing CHA to 12-2, so you get 3 x 3D6 channels per day. Consider the Extra Channels feat, despite your weak 3/4 strength channels.The lack of magical gew gaws greatly increases the value of your personal healing power.
* I neglected to mention damage-mitigation spells. You asked about that. Your best is probably 3rd level Resist Energy, Communal. Use this before the dragon breathes electricity on the party, and choose the correct energy type when you cast it. First level spell Sanctuary is great for personal protection. 3rd level Magic Circle Against Evil will save the entire party from hostile mind control and gives +2 AC. Your first level spell Shield of Faith gives +2 AC to an ally for minutes per level. Your 4th level spell Freedom of Movement is an 'I win' button against grappling foes and a lot of hostile magic. Second level Aid gives temporary hit points and a combat bonus. Your 3rd level Summon Monster III spell can summon a Lantern Archon, which can cast the above Aid spell at will. You can theoretically summon the archon, have it buff the party for five rounds, then kick down the door to the dragon's lair and have your archon dart through first. Your 3rd level Prayer spell blatantly tilts all combat numbers in your favor.
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I don't know if I was the poster that Magda referenced in regards to battlefield control casters, but if so... Yes, I like them. However, I've only played arcane controllers so far. I'm much less familiar with the divine spell list.
I think that you should talk with the oracle player outside of the game, and ask if he wants to take this opportunity to go arcane. It is nice having options from the arcane list.
Not every arcane caster wants to go battle field control, either. Many like doing the damage themselves directly in the blaster role. I'm in a game with a bunch of hammers and no dedicated healer (though just about every one of our hammers has the ability to cast cure light wounds) and I like setting things up to make things work better for the team. We so far haven't needed a dedicated healer because my guys don't get hit that often anymore.
Unfortunately, with a low magic, low wealth game, not having CLW wands as backup can really hurt. It also gives arcane casters fewer options if they can't pull out wands as a backup.
Wizards and Arcanists are more versatile than sorcerers, but in a low wealth / low magic game, they could get severely hampered trying to buy / find spells for their spell books. If your friend wants to go arcane, I'd suggest something else. At level 7, a human sorcerer can have a lot of spells known, giving a wide variety of options.
Another option, since your friend loves summoning so much, is going Master Summoner. Not many spell slots, but the summoner spell list is loaded with battlefield control spells. And the lesser eidolon could serve as a rogue / trap disabler, or just a mount, or something else.
Aside to Magda... You were up late! Hope that it was due to fun, holiday-related reasons.
Hmm