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The boon was described to me as follows:
Custom Order: You have a special contract with an ammunition crafter, and you are able to order small batches of specialty ammunition as a result. Choose either a +1 or +2 ranged weapon enchantment. You may purchase +1 [enchantment] pieces of ammunition in sets of 10 instead of sets of 50. Once you choose the weapon enchantment, you may only change the enchantment type by spending 4 Prestige Points.
2 part question: If I chose Bane, must I specify type (If so, assume Humanoid), and if so, am I then required to choose a subtype (Human, Elf, Orc) as well?
I'm looking for some RAW clarification, not general opinion - thanks in advance.
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This is a PFS question, but yes, you must choose the details when you make the order. As far as RAW: when you buy something, you have to specify what the "something" is. You can't keep it in limbo until you choose to use it. That would be like buying a ring of whatever protection, or a "weapon" that might be a longsword or a crossbow. There is nothing in the boon's language which suspends the general rules for buying items.
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If I chose Bane, must I specify type (If so, assume Humanoid), and if so, am I then required to choose a subtype (Human, Elf, Orc) as well?
A bane weapon excels against certain foes. Against a designated foe, the weapon's enhancement bonus is +2 better than its actual bonus. It also deals an extra 2d6 points of damage against the foe.
Designated Foe:
Aberrations
Animals
Constructs
Dragons
Fey
Humanoids (pick one subtype)
Magical beasts
Monstrous humanoids
Oozes
Outsiders (pick one subtype)
Plants
Undead
Vermin
To clarify, I understand that Bane is not a general effect on any creature. My question is whether choosing 'Bane' as the required enchantment selection for the boon also requires the selection of type and subtype (if available,) or if the ability to purchase smaller stacks applies to all Bane arrows. While I doubt that's RAI, I'm looking for clear citations regarding the boon.
Again, I'm looking for specific citations, not opinions.
I appreciate the response, but I'm not taking an opinion poll. Links or citations to specific rules or official rulings regarding the boon would be helpful.
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To clarify, I understand that Bane is not a general effect on any creature. My question is whether choosing 'Bane' as the required enchantment selection for the boon also requires the selection of type and subtype
If you understand the first part, I fail to see why you don't understand the second part.
Things should either be distinctly different, or distinctly the same.
When you add Bane to a weapon, you choose a type and subtype.
As GM Lamplighter replied up thread, the boon changes nothing about that.
And, just FYI, it is usually considered poor forum etiquette to ask that only Paizo employees respond to your questions. This is not only a public forum, but a community composed of knowledgeable players and GMs.
You should listen to, and respect, what we have to say.
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I did ask for any pain employee to respond. If you would read my requests, you would see that a asked for links or citations to official rules regarding the boon. I'm looking for a rules clarification. Anyone can post their take on the issue, but if you can't back up what you are saying, then it's not helpful to me.
I did read your post.
You've given me me no reason to respect your opinion more than anyone else's. If you'd like to back up your position with official data, then it would lend credibility. Quite plainly, I find your response insufficient. You've told me nothing I didn't already know, though to your credit, you did at least quote official rules.
Your assumption that I should blindly accept your personal opinion without evidence is arrogant and laughable.
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Alrighty then. I don't see this discussion going much further.
I'll leave you with this, though - if you believe that the Custom Order Boon works different from the regular Bane ability, then the burden of proof is on you to show why.
It's not our responsibility to show you why the Boon doesn't work as the standard ability.
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The answer, as has been stated eloquently and politely, is that the boon works exactly as if you were purchasing ammunition with the Bane feature. Everything must be chosen beforehand. All the boon allows you to do is buy 10 units of ammunition instead of the standard 50.
There is nothing "official" about the boon because there doesn't need to be.
Core rulebook p.469 & 470.
Nefreet, this isn't court. I asked if anyone could shine more light on the boon, and they haven't. You, however have wasted a lot of time.
Dave, I'll just say thanks for your response.
I'm not sure how to be more clear about this, so I'll leave it at this. I never claimed that I was 'owed' any proof, explanation, or response. I simply asked for direction in understanding a boon (and hopefully boon application in general.) If that's not something that interests someone, nothing requires they take part. I can appreciate the input of Lamplighter and Inbicatus, and still seek more clarification.
Attempting to quell interest and understanding of the game and its rules seems foolhardy to me, as it harms the community in general.
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Venture-Agent, Ohio—Columbus
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Nefreet linked you to the description of the Bane ability and copy/pasted it into the thread as well. What more is required? There is no citation that says the rules work the way they say they do.
The boon allows you to purchase enchanted arrows in stacks of 10 instead of stacks of 50, that's all. To get further details about what those arrows do, or what choices they require, you must reference the specific ability (made easy by Nefreet's link). Bane arrows require you to choose (or randomly determine) a type (and subtype if applicable).
Can you tell us what isn't clear about that?
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Lekku - when something has been asked and answered, asking again and again generally means the person is looking for an undeserved-but-still-technically-RAW advantage. If that isn't your intention, fine - but I'm curious why all of our opinions, which are in remarkable agreement, matter so little that you would rather insult us for having them?
Paizo isn't going to drop everything - during a week which is clearly a holiday for a lot of people - to answer something that is already clear to 99.99% of people who have been using the boon for the last half-year, and has already been answered concisely and politely by a bunch of pretty experienced PFS'ers.
Accusing us of trying to quell debate or not wanting rule clarity - well, that's silly, and it's offensive. If you want to sit on your boon until Paizo responds, go ahead - but it is already an AWESOME boon, and doesn't need to be more awesome to be worth its weight in gold. Of course, maybe I'm wrong, and everyone else but you is wrong.
Enjoy your games!
The boon allows you to purchase enchanted arrows in stacks of 10 instead of stacks of 50, that's all... Bane arrows require you to choose (or randomly determine) a type (and subtype if applicable).
Can you tell us what isn't clear about that?
Talon - Again, if I haven't been clear on this, my apologies - I will try again: For the boon, you have to choose an enchantment. If I chose Bane, would it allow me to buy any Bane arrows in stacks of 10, or does it only allow for the purchase of one specific type/subtype (AKA Evil-Outsider Bane) and all others must be purchased in stacks of 50? As always, a reference to source is appreciated, since I am trying to better understand how to answer these questions on my own, and not just seeking a on-off answer.
Lekku - when something has been asked and answered, asking again and again generally means the person is looking for an undeserved-but-still-technically-RAW advantage. If that isn't your intention, fine - but I'm curious why all of our opinions, which are in remarkable agreement, matter so little that you would rather insult us for having them?
Paizo isn't going to drop everything - during a week which is clearly a holiday for a lot of people - to answer something that is already clear to 99.99% of people who have been using the boon for the last half-year, and has already been answered concisely and politely by a bunch of pretty experienced PFS'ers.
Accusing us of trying to quell debate or not wanting rule clarity - well, that's silly, and it's offensive. If you want to sit on your boon until Paizo responds, go ahead - but it is already an AWESOME boon, and doesn't need to be more awesome to be worth its weight in gold. Of course, maybe I'm wrong, and everyone else but you is wrong.
Enjoy your games!
Lamplighter - I'm not sure why you've taken an aggressive posture in this, but very well. Point-by-point.
I'm not seeking an advantage, I'm attempting to understand the nuances of how these two elements work together. While your opinions are in agreement, I led this thread by stating I was not seeking opinion, which is in ready supply and has no prerequisites, but instead existing rules, errata, or previously established rulings.
This is not the same as expecting any Paizo employee to 'drop everything' at any time to make a ruling. I was quite clear on this point earlier.
You can be offended by my assertions, if you wish. That's your prerogative.
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The existing rules state that the Bane enchantment must choose a Type and Subtype when created. There is no such thing as a Non-Specific Bane weapon. You must specify Human Bane, Elf Bane, Monstrous Humanoid Bane, Devil Bane, and so on.
Your quoted boon text states "Once you choose the weapon enchantment, you may only change the enchantment type by spending 4 Prestige Points."
If you choose Human Bane arrows for the boon, the enchantment type is set as Human Bane.
This is straightforward and obvious.
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I think Lekku is asking whether the boon allows you to make special orders of "bane" arrows as the selected enchantment, and when you make them, you can buy them at time of order as bane [human], bane [elf] and so on; this would mean that the enchantment would not need to be changed for 4PP every time, and you could just order a small quantity of bane targeting whatever creature type you wanted, when you wanted it.
On the other hand, if he had to select "bane (human)", whether he would have to pay 4PP to make a later special order of "bane (elf)" arrows, "bane (devil)", and so on.
The question actually makes sense when you consider that the question is whether he has to burn 4PP to get a new type of specifically tuned bane arrows.
For the record, I think that you would have to spend 4PP to change from bane [human] to bane [elf], for example.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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I agree with Bardez, in my understanding of Lekku's question. I concur with Imbicatus, that it would be very beneficial for an archer to be able to buy a variety of bane arrows without spending Prestige to switch from one target to another.
Having said that, I'm not sure of the rules, myself. Certainly, it would cost Prestige to switch from buying little clumps of flaming ammunition to little clumps of frost ammunition. But I'm not sure about switching from bane (human) to bane (oozes).
Generating bane (what I need right now) is a class ability for Inquisitors and maybe some other classes/archetypes. Recent ranger archetypes have moved from "favored enemy (humans)" to "favored enemy (that thing in front of me)." And this is a boon, which is sometimes a pretty cool thing.
So, I don't know. If I were the campaign leadership, I'd require Prestige to change from one type of bane to another, but I'm not sure that Mike and John would agree.
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Lekku, to help you better understand the "nuances of the game", you should first know that Pathfinder is referred to as having a "permissive" ruleset. That means you can only do what the rules tell you. The default assumption when you read an ability (such as this boon granting you bane) is that it functions the same as the bane ability quoted above. In order for the boon to function differently, its text must clearly say so.
Since there is no such text on the boon, and it actually references spending 4pp to change the enchantment, then it works as the default bane ability.
That's why we're saying "the burden of proof is on you".
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Finally.
@Bardez - Yes, that is exactly what I'm asking. Apologies if my explanation muddled things.
There would be nothing stopping you from buying 10 arrows each of EVERY applicable bane type cheaply, to effectively have bane (everything).
@Imbicatus, Yes, I realize that some would think that overpowered. What you describe would require 24 individual subtypes (if my math is right), and 10x stacks run 1660.5g. Your point is completely valid, but I wouldn't personally call 39,852g cheap. I'd call it overkill. Currently, I don't have any characters that can afford a single stack of 10 of any flavor of Bane, so the point is moot, for me.
@Chris Mortika - I don't know what you would plan with bone (oozes) but I'd rather not be present when it's activated 8D
@Talib Aguiye Ironsi - That's sort of the crux of the matter, and my initial assumption. Maybe a better question would have been this: Is Bane a weapon enchantment, or grouping of 24 individual weapon enchantments that share a name and similar functions? If it is the former, then I would assume that the ability doesn't change. If the latter, then yes, 4pp would obviously be required to change it up. While I'd still like to find clarification on this point, I'm just happy that there are a few posters out there that are willing to dicuss it rationally.
Bardez, Imbicatus, C Mortica and Talib - Thank you very much for your patience and feedback, and for restoring my faith in humanity (at least on paizo.com).
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Following on what Chris said, Bane (human) and Bane (oozes) are different types of bane enhancements. If you have bane on a weapon, you cannot switch it to a different type arbitrarily. You have to purchase a separate bane enhancement to target the desired subtype. It therefore follows that 4PP would be required to change the bane subtype for the arrows you are able to purchase with this boon. It's also consistent balance-wise!
To the OP: As some advice, it's not constructive to tell people that "their answer is insufficient" when they misunderstand your question. The solution to that is usually rephrasing the question so that they understand. Unnecessary hostility is unnecessary.
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@Talib Aguiye Ironsi - That's sort of the crux of the matter, and my initial assumption. Maybe a better question would have been this: Is Bane a weapon enchantment, or grouping of 24 individual weapon enchantments that share a name and similar functions? If it is the former, then I would assume that the ability doesn't change. If the latter, then yes, 4pp would obviously be required to change it up. While I'd still like to find clarification on this point, I'm just happy that there are a few posters out there that are willing to dicuss it rationally.
Here's what the CRB says on this:
Bane: A bane weapon excels against certain foes. Against a designated foe, the weapon's enhancement bonus is +2 better than its actual bonus. It also deals an extra 2d6 points of damage against the foe. To randomly determine a weapon's designated foe, roll on the following table.
d% Designated Foe
01–05 Aberrations
06–09 Animals
10–16 Constructs
17–22 Dragons
23–27 Fey
28–60 Humanoids (pick one subtype)
61–65 Magical beasts
66–70 Monstrous humanoids
71–72 Oozes
73–88 Outsiders (pick one subtype)
89–90 Plants
91–98 Undead
99–100 Vermin
Moderate conjuration; CL 8th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, summon monster I; Price +1 bonus.
The bane weapon itself is suited to be particularly effective against one specific type of enemy upon receiving the magical enhancement. Once the choice is cemented, it's permanent and can't be changed. So for the purposes of this boon, you'd have to fork over the 4pp to get a different bane weapon, since it's basically a completely different type of arrow. It would be different if there was text that allowed you to change the type.
So I guess with the way you've conceptualized it in your previous post, it's the former wording, but you still need to pay the 4PP because they're still distinct applications of the bane ability that can't be changed.
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There would be nothing stopping you from buying 10 arrows each of EVERY applicable bane type cheaply, to effectively have bane (everything).@Imbicatus, Yes, I realize that some would think that overpowered. What you describe would require 24 individual subtypes (if my math is right), and 10x stacks run 1660.5g. Your point is completely valid, but I wouldn't personally call 39,852g cheap. I'd call it overkill. Currently, I don't have any characters that can afford a single stack of 10 of any flavor of Bane, so the point is moot, for me.
Yes, but Bane (Human), Bane (Undead), Bane (Monstrous Humanoid), Bane (Demon)(season 5), and Bane (construct)(Season 6) would cover 90% of the enemies in a typical PFS scenario, and would be much cheaper, and easily affordable by tier 5-9.
To the OP: As some advice, it's not constructive to tell people that "their answer is insufficient" when they misunderstand your question. The solution to that is usually rephrasing the question so that they understand. Unnecessary hostility is unnecessary.
Acedio, on the first part - I don't think anything constructive happened on this thread until Bardez showed up. I'm currently looking into a scroll of Summon Bardez, to alieviate such issues in the future. My frustration with earlier posters' attitudes remains, and was just that - frustration. I agree that any hostility here is unnecessary, but maintain that I was not the one that instigated it. I do appreciate your input, and am happy to move on.
Is Bane a weapon enchantment, or grouping of 24 individual weapon enchantments that share a name and similar functions?That sounds like an excellently precise FAQ question for the Rules Questions forum.
Thanks, I'll try that. Ooh boy, here we go again.
Update: Talib, I've done just that. Thanks, again.
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Is Bane a weapon enchantment, or grouping of 24 individual weapon enchantments that share a name and similar functions?That sounds like an excellently precise FAQ question for the Rules Questions forum.
I believe it is already, indirectly, answered by an existing FAQ or clarification, which states that you can enhance a single weapon with multiple different Banes, which makes them separate magical enhancements.
Bane: Can I apply multiple bane special abilities to the same weapon? If so, do their effects stack?
You can apply multiple bane special abilities to the same weapon. For example, you can have a +1 dragon- and fey-bane longsword, which has an increased enhancement bonus and damage against dragons and against fey.
If you have multiple bane effects on a weapon and attack a creature against which more than one bane applies (such as a chaotic- and evil-outsider bane weapon used against a demon), the effects do not stack: the weapon's enhancement bonus is only +2 higher than its actual enhancement bonus, and it only deals +2d6 points of damage against that opponent.
(Compare to fighter weapon training or ranger favored enemy bonuses, both of which say you use the highest bonus if more than one bonus applies.)
posted November 2013
Linking to the new thread in Rules Questions, to keep it simple.
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For the record, I understood what the question was - I don't think anyone didn't. The answers provided answered that question, as well.
As to FAQing - well, if no one would click on this FAQ thread, I don't see it happening on another thread. It seems that most people can determine the way ti works just fine.
Good luck to the OP, I hope you find the answers to your questions. Enjoy your games!